Hurn Sector - Saturday night - Thank you
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Hurn Sector - Saturday night - Thank you
Picture the scene. Sitting at Faro, Saturday night, (as you do) almost ready to go at 2030z holding a Ctot of 2303z for Lgw showing a 'Worthington Suite' restriction which I now understand to be the Bournmouth/Hurn Sector. New flight plans are thrust into our hands showing a route via Bhd UA25 Bcn UG1 Mid. New CTOT 2052z! Mad scramble to get a/b, fortunately have put extra fuel on! Get a/b at 2102z thanks to the cooperation of Fao ATC - Obrigado, boys. FMGC (Airbus) shows eta Lgw 2352z, Pitch up at Bhd and nice man at Swanwick says ''Continue towards Bhd for the moment, we are working on a more direct routing for you''. A couple of moments later up comes my hero with:''Route direct to May and call London on ....'' The rest is history, landing time Lgw 2338z. And my point, I hear you ask? The answer is twofold: firstly, to express gratitude to the flexible ATCers who are prepared to put in that extra effort to arrange thing for our benefit and that of our passangers, and secondly to point out what we all probably all know and that is that flow management is a rough tool no matter how precise it might seem. The nice lady on the Boh Sector did not seem at all busy and indeed told us way out that we were 'No 1 for LGW'. So why the 2.5 hr delay via Barlu? Anyway, thanks boys and girls for your efforts, my passengers were left in no doubt about it.
Cheers
mcdhu
Cheers
mcdhu
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mcdhu
Its a bit tiresome to keep getting it in the neck for the inneficiencies of others. As with all computer systems the maxim is "sh*t in sh*t out". We at flow only apply airspace closures or severe reductions in capacity when requested to do so by the FMPs concerned.
If London tell us their sector is going to be closed and then open it, where does the problem lie?. Not in FMD I hope you agree.
Anyway, while we are on the subject, we have just been told that Clacton sector is going to be closed all night tomorrow (and possibly Tuesday night as well) due to staff shortage at London ACC. This is not flow having a laugh, it is an operational request from an ACC to stop traffic entering a sector which is closed. If they subsequently open it after you have taken a big delay I can understand your frustration, but question the quality of the plan from London, not the resultant inputs from Brussels . We at flow are also frustrated with the constant changes of plan at London. How you manage to run an airline out of the U.K. is beyond me- well done for staying afloat.
And by the way, its the "worthing suite"(as in "town on the south coast of England". I believe Worthington is some kind of beer substitute.
Flowman
Its a bit tiresome to keep getting it in the neck for the inneficiencies of others. As with all computer systems the maxim is "sh*t in sh*t out". We at flow only apply airspace closures or severe reductions in capacity when requested to do so by the FMPs concerned.
If London tell us their sector is going to be closed and then open it, where does the problem lie?. Not in FMD I hope you agree.
Anyway, while we are on the subject, we have just been told that Clacton sector is going to be closed all night tomorrow (and possibly Tuesday night as well) due to staff shortage at London ACC. This is not flow having a laugh, it is an operational request from an ACC to stop traffic entering a sector which is closed. If they subsequently open it after you have taken a big delay I can understand your frustration, but question the quality of the plan from London, not the resultant inputs from Brussels . We at flow are also frustrated with the constant changes of plan at London. How you manage to run an airline out of the U.K. is beyond me- well done for staying afloat.
And by the way, its the "worthing suite"(as in "town on the south coast of England". I believe Worthington is some kind of beer substitute.
Flowman
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We know that delays get bad on Saturdays down in the sunny south coast sectors, and always try our best to help out when able. I'm sure the guys and gals working last night will apprechiate your thanks.
The delay you got can be average on Saturday night due to the shear amount of charter traffic returning from Spain going to all points in the Uk, normally via Barlu or Bhd. When you pitched up on the West End sectors, they would have checked firstly with the Hurn sector to see how busy they were. In your case, obviously not very, so they could take you in.
Due to staffing, the Hurn Sectors (now numbered 19-21) have to be bandboxed together with Seaford (S18) to make up the old Worthing Suite, and Dover/Lydd (S15-17). Flow generally protects the controller from overloads, however as you say, is very rough and as we usually see down south, cannot stop bunching of traffic. Apparently a device that can is being developed, but how far can it really go??????????
The delay you got can be average on Saturday night due to the shear amount of charter traffic returning from Spain going to all points in the Uk, normally via Barlu or Bhd. When you pitched up on the West End sectors, they would have checked firstly with the Hurn sector to see how busy they were. In your case, obviously not very, so they could take you in.
Due to staffing, the Hurn Sectors (now numbered 19-21) have to be bandboxed together with Seaford (S18) to make up the old Worthing Suite, and Dover/Lydd (S15-17). Flow generally protects the controller from overloads, however as you say, is very rough and as we usually see down south, cannot stop bunching of traffic. Apparently a device that can is being developed, but how far can it really go??????????
flowman
Your comment "Its a bit tiresome to keep getting it in the neck for the inneficiencies (sic) of others." is spot on!!!
We at London feel exactly that way about some of the activities in Brussels FMU. It is not our fault that our management spectacularly failed to provide enough staff for us to do our job efficiently but, as cited above, we regularly work ourselves to a frazzle trying to reduce delays for flights. How often we find, when we agree a plan amongst ourselves, that it is stopped in its tracks "because Brussels won't like it".
I wasn't involved in the Saturday night event, but I will ensure that those who were receive the plaudits.
NN
Your comment "Its a bit tiresome to keep getting it in the neck for the inneficiencies (sic) of others." is spot on!!!
We at London feel exactly that way about some of the activities in Brussels FMU. It is not our fault that our management spectacularly failed to provide enough staff for us to do our job efficiently but, as cited above, we regularly work ourselves to a frazzle trying to reduce delays for flights. How often we find, when we agree a plan amongst ourselves, that it is stopped in its tracks "because Brussels won't like it".
I wasn't involved in the Saturday night event, but I will ensure that those who were receive the plaudits.
NN
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flowman
Perhaps it's unintentional but the way your post sounds only serves to reinforce the widely held belief that you and your system are inconvenienced by changes of plan at Swanwick.
Which in turn suggests that you might think you could run the whole of Europe more efficiently than the ACCs.
Which may be correct, but it's rather irritating to read your post when we at Swanwick - despite everything - try to be as proactive as we can and this by its very nature means changing the rates/rules tactically to try and get as many punters away/through as we can.
It sounds like you think we exist to support your system. I suggest that you actually exist to support the ACCs!
Perhaps it's unintentional but the way your post sounds only serves to reinforce the widely held belief that you and your system are inconvenienced by changes of plan at Swanwick.
Which in turn suggests that you might think you could run the whole of Europe more efficiently than the ACCs.
Which may be correct, but it's rather irritating to read your post when we at Swanwick - despite everything - try to be as proactive as we can and this by its very nature means changing the rates/rules tactically to try and get as many punters away/through as we can.
It sounds like you think we exist to support your system. I suggest that you actually exist to support the ACCs!
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Hang on a minute, guys and gals, it was not my intention to start a slanging match between ATC and Flow Management but rather to thank those involved in making my flight that night more efficient. Surely the contention that flow is a rough tool is correct for some of the very reasons, exposed in this thread, which are not always predictable. We're all doing our best to run with what we have, while management....... But how about naming the sectors after local beers - The 'Boddy Sector' would surely do for the lakes; any other offers?
Cheers
mcdhu
Cheers
mcdhu
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Flying piglet
Firstly, we are not inconvenienced by changes of plan at NERC. Its our bread and butter, its what we get paid for- to shove into this machine anythingyou decide to do. It keeps me in a job.
Secondly, we do not think we "could run the whole of Europe more efficiently than the ACCs", it is our role to work with the ACCs to maximise capacity at the same time as protecting you guys from overdeliveries. We are tring to achieve the same objectives and we are all part of the same process.
Everyone here would freely accept that you at NERC are all working your beans off and that, due to management planning deficiencies, you are grossly understaffed.
But why shoot the messenger. If we give a delay to a flight because you tell us a sector is closed, why should we take criticism when that flight is subsequently routed through that sector? Surely that is being flexible, certainly nobody here would insist that that flight should stick to its FPL route. If you can save him a few miles good on you.
Firstly, we are not inconvenienced by changes of plan at NERC. Its our bread and butter, its what we get paid for- to shove into this machine anythingyou decide to do. It keeps me in a job.
Secondly, we do not think we "could run the whole of Europe more efficiently than the ACCs", it is our role to work with the ACCs to maximise capacity at the same time as protecting you guys from overdeliveries. We are tring to achieve the same objectives and we are all part of the same process.
Everyone here would freely accept that you at NERC are all working your beans off and that, due to management planning deficiencies, you are grossly understaffed.
But why shoot the messenger. If we give a delay to a flight because you tell us a sector is closed, why should we take criticism when that flight is subsequently routed through that sector? Surely that is being flexible, certainly nobody here would insist that that flight should stick to its FPL route. If you can save him a few miles good on you.
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Flowman
As an ATSA at EGCC/MAN who deals with VFR/IFR Flight Plans from approx 60 "Parent" airfields, why am I constantly told that a/c Gxxxx CANNOT route from A to B?
BUT must route "Airways"?
Admittedly after a [very] prolonged "conversation" we have a [sort of] solution.
But [ to the "rank and file"] there is STILL confusion.
ANY help/input would be greatly appreciated
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
As an ATSA at EGCC/MAN who deals with VFR/IFR Flight Plans from approx 60 "Parent" airfields, why am I constantly told that a/c Gxxxx CANNOT route from A to B?
BUT must route "Airways"? Admittedly after a [very] prolonged "conversation" we have a [sort of] solution.
But [ to the "rank and file"] there is STILL confusion.
ANY help/input would be greatly appreciated
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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Chiglet
FPLs can be filed with direct (DCT) routeings but the length of the DCT segments is limited by national administrations. This is to prevent Aircraft Operators circumnavigating regulated airspace.
The limit is different depending on whether it applies to a SID/STAR, an FIR or a UIR.
For the U.K. the limit as specified by your employer, NATS (not Eurocontrol) is 50 miles for a SID/STAR, and 200 miles for the FIR and UIR. In Italy, just to give you another example, the DCT limit is 0 miles for all categories.
There is nothing at all to prevent any Air Traffic Controller approving a request for DCT routeings once the flight is airborne (subject to normal co-ordination procedures), this is a Flight Planning limitation only.
For any further enquiries you should contact the IFPU, that's where I went for the answer. I am sure you have the phone number.
Flowman
FPLs can be filed with direct (DCT) routeings but the length of the DCT segments is limited by national administrations. This is to prevent Aircraft Operators circumnavigating regulated airspace.
The limit is different depending on whether it applies to a SID/STAR, an FIR or a UIR.
For the U.K. the limit as specified by your employer, NATS (not Eurocontrol) is 50 miles for a SID/STAR, and 200 miles for the FIR and UIR. In Italy, just to give you another example, the DCT limit is 0 miles for all categories.
There is nothing at all to prevent any Air Traffic Controller approving a request for DCT routeings once the flight is airborne (subject to normal co-ordination procedures), this is a Flight Planning limitation only.
For any further enquiries you should contact the IFPU, that's where I went for the answer. I am sure you have the phone number.
Flowman
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Chiglet
Call IPFU1 on any weekday this week or next, and ask for the Operational Support Team who can give you a bit more info on DCT routes: Flowman is right in what he says but there is a bit more to it than that.
Call IPFU1 on any weekday this week or next, and ask for the Operational Support Team who can give you a bit more info on DCT routes: Flowman is right in what he says but there is a bit more to it than that.
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Flow and FD
Thanx
I'm off to beddie-byes now, but I'll have a chat to them when I'm next in work
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
p.s any good web adds with info on?
Thanx
I'm off to beddie-byes now, but I'll have a chat to them when I'm next in work
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
p.s any good web adds with info on?
