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Old 21st Sep 2019, 10:31
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Originally Posted by N90-EWR View Post
I sure hope things are better over there than here. The typical FAA managers are the incompetent controllers that get "promoted" away from the operation.
Isn’t that the case everywhere ? I spent 38 years in ATC & the vast majority - but not all - of the managers that I came across were of “ lesser ability” when it came to actual controlling .
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 12:01
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by highwideandugly View Post
Newcastle is very interesting at the moment!
Why? Lack of staff?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 13:13
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kcockayne
Isn’t that the case everywhere ? I spent 38 years in ATC & the vast majority - but not all - of the managers that I came across were of “ lesser ability” when it came to actual controlling .
Very true.

But the really important question is were they any good as managers?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 22:25
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Usually NO!
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 08:50
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post
Very true.

But the really important question is were they any good as managers?
In my view, some of them were good managers. These tended to be the ones who delegated a lot of their tasks; or those who involved operational ATCOs in working/project groups. I suppose that the uncharitable would claim that this was because they were not “up to the job” themselves ! The last ten years , or so, of my career did involve myself & a lot of , what I would call, “good operational ATCOS” working closely with the SATCO on important projects. Nevertheless, there were still those “on the shop floor” who found fault with the individual concerned - principally because he was not fully doing the job that he was paid for ! You just can’t win !
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 07:29
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Haven't they got a controller they can promote to the post or is the manager not required to have an ATCO licence?
I don't know chevron. I believe LBA is still short-staffed (I seem to talk to the same voices every time I'm on duty) so there may be reluctance to divert an operational ATCO or WM from the tower to the office. The most recent ATSM was an ATCO but he was purely office only.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 13:05
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
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"In ATC, when heads roll, they roll uphill!" I think I'm quoting correctly from the long lost ATC magazine "On Watch" about fifty years ago, in turn quoting, I think, a Canadian source. You, Keith, should know how true that was, given the procession of the incompetent, the lying, the self-serving and the stupid we had to work with and for! I may not be the "Ace of the Base" but my career was blocked by a person I considered, with some justification and staff agreement, was most incompetent operational controller in history!
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 14:10
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Devil

Originally Posted by Jay Doubleyou View Post
"In ATC, when heads roll, they roll uphill!" I think I'm quoting correctly from the long lost ATC magazine "On Watch" about fifty years ago, in turn quoting, I think, a Canadian source. You, Keith, should know how true that was, given the procession of the incompetent, the lying, the self-serving and the stupid we had to work with and for! I may not be the "Ace of the Base" but my career was blocked by a person I considered, with some justification and staff agreement, was most incompetent operational controller in history!
It was a well known saying when NATS was still part of the Civil Service (pre 1975) that you can't sack a civil servant so you promote them and post them.
My career was blocked by a person I considered, with some justification and staff agreement, was the most incompetent ATS manager in history.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 20:48
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kcockayne View Post

In my view, some of them were good managers. These tended to be the ones who delegated a lot of their tasks; or those who involved operational ATCOs in working/project groups. I suppose that the uncharitable would claim that this was because they were not “up to the job” themselves ! The last ten years , or so, of my career did involve myself & a lot of , what I would call, “good operational ATCOS” working closely with the SATCO on important projects. Nevertheless, there were still those “on the shop floor” who found fault with the individual concerned - principally because he was not fully doing the job that he was paid for ! You just can’t win !
I fully understand what you mean. Over my years have seen a small number of managers who have done a really good job. Some of those have been ex-operational, others 'professional' managers, but no-one should kid themselves that being a manager, especially a good one, is easy. Sadly, a good number of those who were promoted out of ops proved themselves to be no better in management. One reason, I suspect, is that doing management requires a different mindset from that in an operational role and too many ex-controllers still think like controllers, along with all the priorities, perceived importance of the role and other baggage, when they find themselves in a management position. It is a different job and needs a different mindset. And it is, perhaps, the reason why a working controller at a unit may not be the best person to take on the management role there - it might work but, on the other hand, there are plenty of examples where someone who moves up the ladder tries to stay mates with the workers and to please them when the management task requires unpopular decisions or actions.

The point about some people can never win is a truism in our business. It's a small business and our reputations can precede us (or give us a label that is impossible to shake off for years). I have mentioned a bit about my history in other posts and do so now because it makes me smile (and certainly not because I want anyone to feel sorry for me or whatever).... I am a chopped UK CAA ATCO cadet - I was able to overcome this disability and worked as a controller at a number of airports, mostly successfully, for nearly 20 years after which I joined the CAA SRG. A while into my new job as a regulator I found myself dealing with a unit manager who, 20+ years earlier, had been one of those OJTIs who recommended that my training be terminated. Whilst I was at his unit doing my stuff I overheard him describing me to one of his colleagues as a failed cadet - nothing else I might have done in the intervening years appeared to mean anything to him. Still makes me smile as I type this, maybe it's just my warped sense of humour!

But enough of the thread-drift. I still wish tcm1707 the best of luck in his/her quest and wonder if there is any positive news to report?
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 18:06
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Back on the subject of ATC jobs...

https://www.jobtrain.co.uk/newcastle...ik4KByh1lRR5h4

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Old 30th Sep 2019, 13:05
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Isle of Wight
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Thanks for your PM last week! I thoroughly agree with what you said but didn't have much success in replying by private message, and I don't think I should say anything more on the public forum!
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 09:59
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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And at Southend now:
ATCO
Head of ATS
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 11:28
  #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Red Four View Post
And at Southend now:
ATCO
Head of ATS
Brilliant thanks!
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 11:31
  #34 (permalink)  
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Anyone know what's going on at Newcastle? Heard they were doing interviews this week.
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 22:45
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
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They were advertising for a tower position and it seems to be the strangest situation. An ex colleague of mine said There was no Satco or training department member at the interview, it was carried out by HR and an operations manager. So no scenarios or sim runs.....
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 12:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
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Originally Posted by tcm1707 View Post
Anyone know what's going on at Newcastle? Heard they were doing interviews this week.
No, really, what IS going on at Newcastle???
Apparently they’ve appointed a new SATCO that is a single rated controller with less than 5 years ATC experience. Obvious not bothered about knowledge and experience, if you want to climb the ladder, head up there!!!!
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 13:31
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Not what you know..but who you know?
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 04:53
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Digby15 View Post


No, really, what IS going on at Newcastle???
Apparently they’ve appointed a new SATCO that is a single rated controller with less than 5 years ATC experience. Obvious not bothered about knowledge and experience, if you want to climb the ladder, head up there!!!!
Someone has a grudge.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 09:30
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Im sure due diligence by the interview team has been done and the successful candidate has ticked all the appropriate boxes?
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 11:01
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Apparently they’ve appointed a new SATCO that is a single rated controller with less than 5 years ATC experience.
Said it before but still valid - what matters is whether they can manage a unit.
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