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Remote towers

Old 1st Mar 2019, 00:36
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by escaped.atco View Post
Any controller, any sector? Haven't heard that one yet but then my work has always been ADI/APS. I've read bits and pieces about SESAR but it hasn't really filtered down the entire business yet, I'm sure it will though at some stage. It's a bit like saying any pilot, any aircraft. Sure the principles are the same and for 99% of the time you'll be flying along quite happily - snag is when the proverbial hits the fan, you have a human so far behind what's happening that it may well prove unrecoverable.

Unfortunately I refer back to what I stated earlier, if someone knows what they want as an end result then simply write the risk assessment to suit. That way it all looks good on paper. It's not that long ago when I was coming through training. all students were told under pain of death that they were never to vector on the ATM, regulator would strip their license and all hell would break loose. Fast forward a few years and let's do RITT. Thats not enough, now its lets have one controller doing several airports. Where does it all stop? Do we need a major or catastrophic incident to show that sometimes efficiency and cost cutting has limits? I hope not. Unfortunately my experience in recent years has been ideas and plans coming down from senior management to middle management, the mantra isn't "will this work?", rather "make this work if you want your performance bonus and career progression."
SESAR News:
https://www.sesarju.eu/news/any-controller-any-airspace
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 08:27
  #42 (permalink)  

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The modern logic:

Successive governments fear having people unemployed.
They find ways of taking away more jobs by replacing the employed with (ostensibly cheaper in the short to mid term) technology.
We all complain about the rift between the employed and the unemployed.
The unemployed resent the employed.
The employed resent having to help support the unemployed.

Not my logic though.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 08:34
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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It is possible, logic and plausible. It should be further developed before operational application but it is future,for sure.

The only backseat is social questions -read it Term and Conditions. We are facing competition that are capable. Today is too much "borders" and papers that blocks full implementation "free movement of working people" (in ATC domain)-such as language, citizenship ( EU/non EU) ,local procedures, military sensitive data. etc.. This is just a way for our main goal - " we protect our best working position for our people". It is still top job for many countries in Europe. (unmatched salary, rostering-working hours, other benefits and social security at the top of all.)

And could you imagine that we transfer those working positions to some third country provider that will pay ATCOs 2$ or so daily?

Without some major disruption in world relationships it will not be approved and applied.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:22
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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That SESAR link says :

"allowing air traffic controllers to control a particular type of sector in any control centre across Europe"

Not a chance, and for many reasons, not all of which are technical. A lot of time and money are going to be wasted then this will be quietly put out to pasture.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:27
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Neptune262 View Post
Now that is quite a scary document to read. Can you imagine that being written even a short time ago, say within the last 10 years? Has no-one raised any objections to thinking like this or is it a case of anyone objecting is seen as being awkward and obstructive and getting in the way of the future? I can't comment on Area procedures and issues but I'm at a loss as to imagine this in a Tower scenario, the only way I can see this happening is if every single airfield was to operate to exactly the same standards. From stand separations to emergency call out procedures, LVPs, clearance delivery and everything else that goes with daily ADI Ops. Can you imagine an ATCO dealing with LVPs in one airfield and applying the rules from another, there's plenty of scope for other differences having a catastrophic outcome. No doubt some statistician somewhere has come up with a very low probability to satisfy any APSA process. I'm all for the use of technology and using it to help with a variety of problems but this is a different level altogether.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 18:56
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Well, I can comment as an ex-AREA ATCO, ex-ADC ATCO, ex-APC/APS ATCO and ex-CSC......And it scares me sh*tless.

Back in the 1990s, (or thereabouts), a copy of 'Transmit' arrived in our crew-room, and on the front was the headline 'De-Skilling The Profession'.

It's coming.

Last edited by ZOOKER; 1st Mar 2019 at 19:59.
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 14:11
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER View Post

Back in the 1990s, (or thereabouts), a copy of 'Transmit' arrived in our crew-room, and on the front was the headline 'De-Skilling The Profession'.

It's coming.
Iím truly curious. Why do you think an ATCO in a digital/remote tower would in any way be Ďde-skilledí compared with same ATCO in a traditional tower?

Same job, slightly different tools, requiring the same skills. (Or did I mis-interpret your post?)

Rgds


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Old 6th Mar 2019, 14:58
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Hi good egg,

It was mainly aimed at the 'one ATCO fits all sectors' part of the discussion.

How's EGLC coming on by the way, is there an 'O' Date yet?

All the best.
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 15:17
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER View Post
Hi good egg,

It was mainly aimed at the 'one ATCO fits all sectors' part of the discussion.

How's EGLC coming on by the way, is there an 'O' Date yet?

All the best.
Ah, fair enough, my apologies (-You donít hear that very often! )

AFAIK itís all on track from a technical point-of-view, but Iím not really in the loop these days.
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 15:34
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER View Post
Back in the 1990s, (or thereabouts), a copy of 'Transmit' arrived in our crew-room, and on the front was the headline 'De-Skilling The Profession'.
If by De-Skilling you mean moving more traffic than ever before, with less staff, and maintaining an excellent safety record, then I guess we have been de-skilled...
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 16:20
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately mike, I can't remember the context of the original GATCO article. It's up in my loft somewhere, and if I find it, I'll scan it in.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 21:37
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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I am new to PPRuNe so cannot post links to URLs. It may interest some of you to find the Transcript of the meeting of The Convention of the Highlands and Islands held on Millport on 12th March 2018. On pages 69-82 is a presentation and Q&A session given by the Chair of HIAL, Lorna Jack, and Inglis Lyon, MD of HIAL. It was supposed to inform the representatives from Highlands and Islands local authorities and Scottish Government agencies why HIAL must have Remote Towers. It was also meant to clear up "misconceptions" about what remote air traffic means. Look it up. Enjoy a trip into the Mind of Senior Management....
LeeRoy Jenkins 2005 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 13:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Here is the Millport meeting link. Iím very impressed that remote towers are going to affect aircraft minima in fog and they will be able to land on a sixpence! Starts at page 69.

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conten...eDownload=true
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 18:59
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AyrTC View Post
Here is the Millport meeting link. Iím very impressed that remote towers are going to affect aircraft minima in fog and they will be able to land on a sixpence! Starts at page 69.

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conten...eDownload=true
Wow, Iíll join the queue to get a job with Air Nav Solutions - if theyíre paying Gatwick ATCOs £160,000 tax free ! (page 72)
Packer27L is online now  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 19:08
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
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Looks like the dream is being sold to gullible and not necessarily knowledgeable people. Unfortunately I can imagine a similar conversation with airport managers up and down the country, all on the basis of telling them what they want to hear.

Must admit though I'm quite interested in the £160k tax free at LGW, where do I apply for that please?

Last edited by escaped.atco; 20th Mar 2019 at 19:08. Reason: Packer just beat me to it, we're all mercenary!
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