Interesting story on BBC

[atco-matic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2161079.stm about our financing at Nats

[vertigo]

colin chisholm staff briefing

..and here is todays latest news on NATS..


http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/audio/38...anbridge06.ram

[foo fighting]

..."dire" is the word used in the above story, todays instalment in the entertaining story of the continuing disintegration through gross mismanagement of one of Britains vital transport networks.

Is it about time that some of our 'superiors' fell on their swords ?

[Julian]

And the latest...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2164989.stm

[250 kts]

I think we're all being far too hard on management. After all it is only about 8 years ago that they were warned by the staff/unions that they wouldn't have anywhere near enough ATCOs to run the number of sectors that they were planning on.

The customers are now reaping the rewards of believing what they were told by NATS. The truth is that the flow rates are back at LATCC levels and were at that level relatively quickly. It is purely a FORESEEN staff shortage that has caused this mess.

Management even had the nerve to blame too many people retiring early as a factor-funny I thought they knew we had a flexible retirement scheme

The sooner we have a policy which posts people around the country into LACC & LATCC the better. I know this is controversial but I see the only way out is to train our way there-and the quickest people to validate will be previously valid staff. I know you won't get them all through but at least the chances should be increased.

It's really not bad down here-once you get used to the huge mortgage. .

[foo fighting]

excellent idea re:moving people down south.

Can't imagine we'll get killed in the rush though. I think our northern colleagues will find enough reasons not to work a lot harder for a relatively poorer existence. No blame attached there, only to said management who seem to forget the "movable grade" aspect of the job that they throw at everyone when it suits them.

[250 kts]

And that's just why we have to make the differential worth moving for.

We should be getting the Additional Attendances factored into WPP for LACC so EVERYONE has to do a few extra days BUT the reward is,say, an extra £8000 on the basic salary.
Doing it that way ensures that there will not be so much anymosity(as there will be) to the ones who do it and also that the days are properly monitored. We all know what happened last year with SRATCOH etc.

Also doing it in this way encourages both sides to resolve the problem asap and there is a definite end date to the additional duties. As it stands at present this will go on into the Summer of 2004 without further negotiation

There is also the issue of nights being equally rostered. Just imagine that your mate volunteers for the AVA.I don't think they will get nights just in case they are needed. No, voluntary days are not the way to go and have some major problems attached.

The major advantage to this is the money is there in peoples' salaries for good and if NATS need to extend the deal then they will have to cough up again in the future when the deal is extended.

It would also get away from, say, a guy in his 50's knackering himself out doing upto 20 days extra just to boost the pension-assuming he lives long enough to see it of course.

[ZIP250]

Me thinks Mr Cheese n Ham has a bad case of Foot in Mouth. Kenny has told us that it is all under control now he's back. I wonder what awaits the Chief Operating Officer on his return from the Eastern Mediterranean. They can hardly follow the usual course and promote him can they?

On the subject of staffing Swanwick it has to be a question of supply and demand. Now we are in the open market then surely all those guys n gals practising their skills elsewhere will come to the sunny South Coast for a few squids. The only problem is defining "few". I reckon to make it worthwhile for someone from jockland to transfer we must be talking £25k a year on basic. I may be wrong but with the current insoluble staffing crisis, I reckon the've got to start an auction and I think that for that sort of money they might get a few takers.

What about it you folk up north. What is your price??!!


Z

[Scott Voigt]

Do you not get a bonus for working evenings??? Or on weekends?

regards

[250 kts]

At present the differential between the top of the 2 scale at LACC and at MACC/ScACC is around £5K. My suggestion would increase this to about £13K.

I'm looking forward to hearing what the reaction would be to this idea from some of our colleagues "oop north". Bearing in mind NATS can't afford to keep all these centres open and I'll be amazed if McNERC ever happens,they'll be coming down here anyway so any advances made now can only benefit them in the future.

I also urge LACC people to react to the idea of the additional duties being built into the WPP.

Scott. The money for nights/holidays etc is paid in the form of an Unsocial Hours Payment(UHP). This is fine except nATS has consistently failed to raise its' value in line with the normal increases which we may get. It accounts for less than 10% of basic pay. However our wonderful new rosterers get it at a rate of 12.5% and they do't even have to work nights for it.

[Spotter]

Get to Falkirk

Or another similar sounding Scottish phrase.

I'm not at LACC or LTCC, & I hope never to be. But you can be sure that whatever precedents you set down there will be forced on the rest of us whether we like it or not if it suits management.

Surely you are not serious about wanting COMPULSORY extra shifts rostered? I've no objection if you want to VOLUNTEER for extra duties & mess up your days off just for the sake of a poxy few quid, but don't expect me to.

Anyway I thought it was supposed to be so horrendously busy down there that you need every bit of respite just to recover for the next cycle's onslaught?

I may not work at a unit handling the amount of traffic you do, but I value my time off, and if anything would prefer the union to be working towards negotiating a shorter working week for us in line with other quality industries in this country & abroad.

I feel that your suggestion rather than encourage people to move south, would have the reverse effect. If you want to attract people then you have got to attract them by offering a better quality of life. & to some people quality of life is not just about having figures on your payslip that look like phone numbers & a mortgage to more than match.

If you want more money then fight for more money, but don't work yourself into an early grave for it.

[250 kts]

Thanks Spotter. You do miss the point i'm trying to make. If the duties are factored in then we,as a union,have the ability to put a definite finish date to any deal. As it is, people can volunteer to do a number of shifts and if they have not done them all by the end of 2003 then they can be carried on into 2004. now this is way beyond the end date for this pay deal but NATS are still benefitting from it.

If it is spread amongst everyone then it will mean around 5 extra duties per year but with major benefits then built into the salary scale FOREVER. This way it also means that individuals do not become reliant financially on the overtime money. It also means that it is much easier to track in terms of SRATCOH as this was a major problem with OCT last year. This way also gets away from the situation of management phoning individuals to do extra and coming up with cosy deals depending on the desperatness of the situation. I recently heard of an ATSA4 being offered TRIPLE time to do a duty-now where does that leave the ATCO daily rate in comparison??

We do have a major problem over night shifts down here and a voluntary deal can only make that situation worse. I think the deal will be voted in by many units but they know that they will not have to change their Working Practices at all to get the additional benefits.

I do accept that many people do not want extra duties but as I said before we have to accept that NATS can't go on like this and properly rostered duties are the best way we have of keeping a track on just what is going on.

[Cavemonster]

250kts

I work at Swanwick, don't want to volunteer for extra duties as the chaos caused socially outweighs the sum on offer in value and don't want to see further divisions in the workforce as the arguments re-start as certain people start doing extras.

So if I wanted to help get the company back on its feet, I'm afraid that I agree with you; everyone to do extra days at a sensible price for a defined period of time. It's a right pain but more equitable.

[1996]

The last 2 posts are precisely why we should not go down the road of overtime under any circumstances. Prospect have accepted a VOLUNTARY overtime deal for a specified period. Those that wish to earn extra cash, feel free but don't expect the majority of us to be joining you. The ATCO job is demanding enough as it is, and those of us who have been doing it for some time value our time off more than cash. Don't ever suggest any form of compusory overtime as intimated in these posts. Managment will be laughing all the way to the bank with their bonuses.

[Scott Voigt]

Hi 250 Knots;

Thanks for the information... I have a hard time keeping it straight as to what all the different countries rules are <G>.

Here we get 10% of base for working between 1800 and 0600. We get nothing for working on Saturdays, but we get 25% of base for working on Sundays..

regards

[250 kts]

1996.

Would you work additional duties for £10k-a day??

I would hazard a guess that you would. So for most people it's not the principle but the reward.

I hope that no-one does the AVA in order that the price to NATS does have to rise to at least what was negotiated last year. We do have to come into the real world over some of these issues. Some of the airfields have been doing OT for ages in order to keep the contracts,and now that NATS is in such a "dire" position maybe we have to do our bit as well.

Yes the managers may still get their bonuses but I don't see some of the senior ones being around too much longer.

So if we do go down this road then let's do it properly built into the WPP and have it regulated and monitored to protect ALL of us.

[Aunt Rimmer]

Moving north ...

Why should I move down south to an overpriced overheated economy, when my quality of life in Scotland is so much better?

Trouble with NATS is too many decision makers with positions and self-interest to protect continually build new buildings in expensive parts of the country. As I understand it, ScOACC is more cost efficient than LATCC and NERC, so perhaps, given that ScOACC now controls 70% of the UK airspace we should be compulsorily posting people to Scotland and closing the centres down south. NERC would make a lovely call centre after all ..... no change there then

Why should you folk 'down south' get £5k extra (plus London weighting) for doing the same job in very small part of the country. ...

Think of the money NATS could save by moving it all to a less expensive part of the country .....

[dontshootme]

I don't get this. One minute you guys are overworked, the next your wanting to work overtime!

Surely it would be better for all concerned to fight for individual rostering. That way, instead of some people doing a nightshift from their bed and their colleagues fighting to cope with the traffic levels later that day, everyone would do their fair share and the peaks and troughs would be staffed for.

[foo fighting]

To A Rimmer,

Must be difficult controlling half a dozen planes in 70% of UK airspace.

I'll pass the hat round in TC to compensate you for the difference in earnings you struggle on for doing the same job as us.


ho ho ho

[ZIP250]

Dontshootme,

We don't want to work overtime. It is management's idea to get us out of the mess the've created. We don't want individual rostering (or ****logic either). We don't sleep on night duties.



Z