F15 Court Martial (Merged thread)
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Hi Spot & Sue
All abreast of the position and glad that the ordeal is nearly over for you. Nothing else to say, just letting you know we are thinking of you and confident of the right outcome.
All the best from Down Under
Phil
All abreast of the position and glad that the ordeal is nearly over for you. Nothing else to say, just letting you know we are thinking of you and confident of the right outcome.
All the best from Down Under
Phil
May God be with you and your family in this most testing of times. We are all with you in this terrible time. Keep the chin up, surely there can only be one outcome and then let the brass explain to the people what was going on.
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CLOSING MOMENTS
Spot and Sue,
- and for that matter, Barbara and John (stalwarts from Spot's family)- hang in there. This must be the closing moments of this awful mess. There is no way they can do otherwise than find you 'not guilty'. Disregarding the result, there can be no doubt amongst the people who have been following the evidence that you are entirely innocent. I will be in Helensburgh again from Sunday evening.
Brian
- and for that matter, Barbara and John (stalwarts from Spot's family)- hang in there. This must be the closing moments of this awful mess. There is no way they can do otherwise than find you 'not guilty'. Disregarding the result, there can be no doubt amongst the people who have been following the evidence that you are entirely innocent. I will be in Helensburgh again from Sunday evening.
Brian
Last edited by Brian Young; 22nd Feb 2003 at 06:52.
Just a numbered other
you couldn't make this stuff up!!
Senior Crab 1 : 'There's been another accident'
Senior Crab 2: 'Better blame the pilots then'
SC1: 'Errr... They're Yanks.'
SC2: 'Best nail the controller, then.'
SC1: 'They weren't under control, but we might be able to stretch credibility if we make RIS look like control, massage the known facts and ignore any other evidence which doesn't fit our case. Especially any civvy witnesses. What do they know anyway.'
Apologies if I sound flippant, I feel quite the reverse. As one of the (hopefully) thorns in the MOD's side over the Chinook crash, it appears to me that the above kind of scenario would appear to fit both mishaps.
I only found this thread last night, and have spent some hours going through every post.
I don't know you Spot, but as an ex dark blue, I fully appreciated that under RIS my life was in MY hands and the controller was there to help me achieve my task.
Your defence team is superb, and if I'm ever in the brown and smelly, I hope I can count on a bunch of friends such as yours. They do the service a darned sight more credit than those who have subjected you to this farce. On the evidence presented in the excellent daily summaries, I cannot see how ANY CM can find you guilty.
You will be aquitted. I will have a beer for you, and once again thank providence that I am no longer part of a service which can treat its loyal servants with such contempt.
To the families of the dead pilots I extend my deepest sympathies. Miltary low flying is an unforgiving, but intensely exacting environment. But the 'blame culture' of the RAF insults everyone's intelligence. Especially those loved ones who want the truth, not a convenient scape-goat.
Senior Crab 2: 'Better blame the pilots then'
SC1: 'Errr... They're Yanks.'
SC2: 'Best nail the controller, then.'
SC1: 'They weren't under control, but we might be able to stretch credibility if we make RIS look like control, massage the known facts and ignore any other evidence which doesn't fit our case. Especially any civvy witnesses. What do they know anyway.'
Apologies if I sound flippant, I feel quite the reverse. As one of the (hopefully) thorns in the MOD's side over the Chinook crash, it appears to me that the above kind of scenario would appear to fit both mishaps.
I only found this thread last night, and have spent some hours going through every post.
I don't know you Spot, but as an ex dark blue, I fully appreciated that under RIS my life was in MY hands and the controller was there to help me achieve my task.
Your defence team is superb, and if I'm ever in the brown and smelly, I hope I can count on a bunch of friends such as yours. They do the service a darned sight more credit than those who have subjected you to this farce. On the evidence presented in the excellent daily summaries, I cannot see how ANY CM can find you guilty.
You will be aquitted. I will have a beer for you, and once again thank providence that I am no longer part of a service which can treat its loyal servants with such contempt.
To the families of the dead pilots I extend my deepest sympathies. Miltary low flying is an unforgiving, but intensely exacting environment. But the 'blame culture' of the RAF insults everyone's intelligence. Especially those loved ones who want the truth, not a convenient scape-goat.
Spot & Family,
I would just like to voice my total support for you all in what has obviously been a total travesty of Justice up until this CM. I know you must be cleared if anyone is ever to have any confidence in the integrity of the CM system.
I am a civil pilot who over the years has much appreciated the skills of UK ATC (both military and civil) and your hospitality on occasion (Leuchars & Lossie). I know many of my colleagues also wish you well.
I would just like to voice my total support for you all in what has obviously been a total travesty of Justice up until this CM. I know you must be cleared if anyone is ever to have any confidence in the integrity of the CM system.
I am a civil pilot who over the years has much appreciated the skills of UK ATC (both military and civil) and your hospitality on occasion (Leuchars & Lossie). I know many of my colleagues also wish you well.
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Spot & Sue,
Its all been said. Nevertheless, add the best wishes of a grey soggy Western Med to the list. Your ordeal is surely nearly over.
Hopefully we'll all be raising a glass or two on Monday.
Cheers
Willie
Its all been said. Nevertheless, add the best wishes of a grey soggy Western Med to the list. Your ordeal is surely nearly over.
Hopefully we'll all be raising a glass or two on Monday.
Cheers
Willie
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Thinking of you
Spot and Sue
I am late adding to these messages, having only discovered last night how to do so. You were both very good to me (though not to my liver!!) when going through the ARTS course early '90. I cannot believe that you find yourself in this position and can only hope that this time next week the nightmare will be over. You know already how many of us are rooting for you. Like so many others, I am grateful for all the updates - nothing worse than ncorrect rumour control. All the very best to you both.
I am late adding to these messages, having only discovered last night how to do so. You were both very good to me (though not to my liver!!) when going through the ARTS course early '90. I cannot believe that you find yourself in this position and can only hope that this time next week the nightmare will be over. You know already how many of us are rooting for you. Like so many others, I am grateful for all the updates - nothing worse than ncorrect rumour control. All the very best to you both.
Everybody's gotta be somewhere
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Dear Spot & Mrs Spot,
I'm just SLF but I was a wannabe ATCO in a previous life.
I've been following this thread since I started lurking on pprune some time ago and I can't believe what has been reported here and just wanted to add my support.
Many thanks to your reporting team; I understand the arguments, even if the prosecution don't!
I look forward to next week and a sensible outcome.
DD
I'm just SLF but I was a wannabe ATCO in a previous life.
I've been following this thread since I started lurking on pprune some time ago and I can't believe what has been reported here and just wanted to add my support.
Many thanks to your reporting team; I understand the arguments, even if the prosecution don't!
I look forward to next week and a sensible outcome.
DD
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Spot,
Been away for a week or so and have just caught up on events. I cannot believe the CM is still running. Surely you and the defence team must get the result you deserve early next week. Glad to hear that Fozzie has been on form. Fully agree with the comments of MATOMAN, especially regarding his praise of DD, MT and R.Enrut. Can't say I always agreed with StuB when he was in the RAF, but he makes some pertinent points about the need for SATCOs to accept responsibility - ("leadership" seems to ring a bell!)
Hang on in there.
YTS sqn ldr
Been away for a week or so and have just caught up on events. I cannot believe the CM is still running. Surely you and the defence team must get the result you deserve early next week. Glad to hear that Fozzie has been on form. Fully agree with the comments of MATOMAN, especially regarding his praise of DD, MT and R.Enrut. Can't say I always agreed with StuB when he was in the RAF, but he makes some pertinent points about the need for SATCOs to accept responsibility - ("leadership" seems to ring a bell!)
Hang on in there.
YTS sqn ldr
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Words
Having read through all the details of the evidence presented at the CM, it seems clear to me that there are several incontrovertible facts; the ac were seen to be VMC below cloud, their rate of descent and radar track points towards them "seeing a gap and going for it" - possibly supported by the r/t to the effect "this looks good, heaters on"; under a RIS, the responsibility for terrain clearance rests with the pilots.
Bearing that in mind, if instead of clearing the ac to descend to 4000ft, the words "at your discretion" had been added, would there have been a different outcome? We shall never know for sure, but the evidence points strongly towards the fact that the 2 pilots saw what they thought they needed to get their sortie on track and went for it. Tragically, they made the wrong decision and paid a terrible price. But, there is no way that this miserable trial, this tortuous and seemingly endless persecution of Spot, is in any way a decent, honest or reasonable way to reconcile the events of that cold March day.
Obviously, there are lessons to be learned and we all who are involved in flying and providing an ATC service have a duty to make safety our very highest priority - but a witch hunt? A name and a face to point at and say - blame him? No. As has been said many times over - "there but for the grace of god, go I". How many times a day, do words get missed out, misheard, transposed, made to fit what a party expects to hear? That's why we work as a team, we look out for each other, we subject ourselves to stringent assessments, medicals, interviews, scrutiny.
Clearly, where different systems (USAF / RAF?) meet, there may be gaps, pitfalls, blindspots. How do we address these problems? It's an ongoing and ever changing challenge, with new generations, new technology, new requirements, come evermore hurdles. Ultimately, there are events for which there is no safety net - many of our military colleagues may well be putting themselves in such circumstances very soon indeed. To practice these skills involves extreme risk and requires a dedication and bravery that most of us will never be called upon to demonstrate. Two such guys are now listed among the many many others who over the years have followed this path and been taken - I am personally humbled that there are so many who will willingly do this and can only offer my greatest respect to them. They, like guys like Craig Penrice, know what they are getting into - and I doubt any of us could prise them away from a job they love.
Time that those behind prosecuting this awful travesty took a look at the big picture, where they, the aircrew, the controllers, the chain of command, the supervisors, authorisers and legislators all fit in to the scheme of things - and ask themselves "what are we going to get out of this by making Spot the subject of blame"? Shame on them.
God Bless Spot
Having read through all the details of the evidence presented at the CM, it seems clear to me that there are several incontrovertible facts; the ac were seen to be VMC below cloud, their rate of descent and radar track points towards them "seeing a gap and going for it" - possibly supported by the r/t to the effect "this looks good, heaters on"; under a RIS, the responsibility for terrain clearance rests with the pilots.
Bearing that in mind, if instead of clearing the ac to descend to 4000ft, the words "at your discretion" had been added, would there have been a different outcome? We shall never know for sure, but the evidence points strongly towards the fact that the 2 pilots saw what they thought they needed to get their sortie on track and went for it. Tragically, they made the wrong decision and paid a terrible price. But, there is no way that this miserable trial, this tortuous and seemingly endless persecution of Spot, is in any way a decent, honest or reasonable way to reconcile the events of that cold March day.
Obviously, there are lessons to be learned and we all who are involved in flying and providing an ATC service have a duty to make safety our very highest priority - but a witch hunt? A name and a face to point at and say - blame him? No. As has been said many times over - "there but for the grace of god, go I". How many times a day, do words get missed out, misheard, transposed, made to fit what a party expects to hear? That's why we work as a team, we look out for each other, we subject ourselves to stringent assessments, medicals, interviews, scrutiny.
Clearly, where different systems (USAF / RAF?) meet, there may be gaps, pitfalls, blindspots. How do we address these problems? It's an ongoing and ever changing challenge, with new generations, new technology, new requirements, come evermore hurdles. Ultimately, there are events for which there is no safety net - many of our military colleagues may well be putting themselves in such circumstances very soon indeed. To practice these skills involves extreme risk and requires a dedication and bravery that most of us will never be called upon to demonstrate. Two such guys are now listed among the many many others who over the years have followed this path and been taken - I am personally humbled that there are so many who will willingly do this and can only offer my greatest respect to them. They, like guys like Craig Penrice, know what they are getting into - and I doubt any of us could prise them away from a job they love.
Time that those behind prosecuting this awful travesty took a look at the big picture, where they, the aircrew, the controllers, the chain of command, the supervisors, authorisers and legislators all fit in to the scheme of things - and ask themselves "what are we going to get out of this by making Spot the subject of blame"? Shame on them.
God Bless Spot
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As a baby ATCO learning to talk the talk, myself and other students have been reading with increasing disbelief that this charade of a CM is still ongoing.
With the little knowledge that we have, it is apparent what is right and what is clearly very wrong.
I do hope that the truth is realised by the Board and that justice is prevails.
Spot and family, although I don't personally know you, it is clear that you have many friends and supporters at Shawbury. All the best and fingers crossed!
With the little knowledge that we have, it is apparent what is right and what is clearly very wrong.
I do hope that the truth is realised by the Board and that justice is prevails.
Spot and family, although I don't personally know you, it is clear that you have many friends and supporters at Shawbury. All the best and fingers crossed!
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NOTIFICATION PROCEDURE FOR RESULT OF CM
As previously mentioned, the CM may conclude on either Monday afternoon or Tuesday. We hope it doesn’t stretch until Wednesday !
As soon as we have a result, I will ring ATC Warton who will ring LATCC, Swanwick, SCATCC and Manchester ATCC supervisors (including military supervisors as appropriate). We will request that they cascade the result both internally and to the airfields in their respective areas.
The result will also be posted on both forums of Pprune at the earliest opportunity.
I note that we have had over 50,000 visits to the combined forums - absolutely awesome !
Dick Doleman
As previously mentioned, the CM may conclude on either Monday afternoon or Tuesday. We hope it doesn’t stretch until Wednesday !
As soon as we have a result, I will ring ATC Warton who will ring LATCC, Swanwick, SCATCC and Manchester ATCC supervisors (including military supervisors as appropriate). We will request that they cascade the result both internally and to the airfields in their respective areas.
The result will also be posted on both forums of Pprune at the earliest opportunity.
I note that we have had over 50,000 visits to the combined forums - absolutely awesome !
Dick Doleman
A really irritating PPRuNer
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50,000 visits to the threads it testimony to the quality of the reporting!
Well deserved, and many thanks for keeping everyone updated.
Fingers still crossed........
Brian
Well deserved, and many thanks for keeping everyone updated.
Fingers still crossed........
Brian
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Spot and family,
I have only just today heard of your situation and read this forum.
I spent 8 years controlling in the RAF and am
dumb struck you have been subjected to this circus.
Why do those in authority accept the credit and
deflect the blame?
Best wishes from the Great White North, I will be listening for the celebrations.
I have only just today heard of your situation and read this forum.
I spent 8 years controlling in the RAF and am
dumb struck you have been subjected to this circus.
Why do those in authority accept the credit and
deflect the blame?
Best wishes from the Great White North, I will be listening for the celebrations.
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Spot
I've never met you, only completed JATCC in the summer, but may I echo the comments of babyatco. I have not met anyone in our branch who is less than 100% behind you. I have no doubt that justice will prevail and you will be able to get on with your life after next week. Good luck!
I've never met you, only completed JATCC in the summer, but may I echo the comments of babyatco. I have not met anyone in our branch who is less than 100% behind you. I have no doubt that justice will prevail and you will be able to get on with your life after next week. Good luck!
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Malc & Sue,
Just to let you know that, even though we can't be there, you will be in our thoughts. Best wishes to Barbara, John and the rest of the team up there who are keeping us informed. We can't even start to imagine what this has been like for you but take heart in the massive support you have and look forward to getting back to as normal as possible very soon.
Caroline, Angela and the rest in Crowle.
Just to let you know that, even though we can't be there, you will be in our thoughts. Best wishes to Barbara, John and the rest of the team up there who are keeping us informed. We can't even start to imagine what this has been like for you but take heart in the massive support you have and look forward to getting back to as normal as possible very soon.
Caroline, Angela and the rest in Crowle.
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Dear Spot
On a short break at work, so just a quick wish for all to go well tomorrow and for the result you have been waiting so long for. If I was a drinking man (
I'd have a glass ready to toast your good health!
All the best
Stu
On a short break at work, so just a quick wish for all to go well tomorrow and for the result you have been waiting so long for. If I was a drinking man (
I'd have a glass ready to toast your good health!All the best
Stu
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Spot, Sue & Family
All the very best wishes for tomorrow - you're in our thoughts constantly.
You are a Top Guy who we are all proud to call our mate .... although you might be rightly dubious about reciprocating the feeling!!!
Take care
ND
All the very best wishes for tomorrow - you're in our thoughts constantly.
You are a Top Guy who we are all proud to call our mate .... although you might be rightly dubious about reciprocating the feeling!!!
Take care
ND
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Spot and Sue,
You are still very much in my thoughts and I fervently hope that you get the result you have been waiting so long for. The daily summaries have made the most compelling reading and the number of hits to both sites is only the tip of the iceberg, hard copies seem to have been freely available throughout.
The very best of luck, although from what I have read I don't think you need it
Al P
You are still very much in my thoughts and I fervently hope that you get the result you have been waiting so long for. The daily summaries have made the most compelling reading and the number of hits to both sites is only the tip of the iceberg, hard copies seem to have been freely available throughout.
The very best of luck, although from what I have read I don't think you need it
Al P