Monday Pay Talks Deadline.......
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Abraham Z,
Basic pay differences are because there is a difference between the types of job. In answer to your question, increases should be across the board.
ATCO's should, IMHO, get paid more.
As you stated, management think that there is a surplus of ATSA's- says a lot that! Better utilisation of ATSA's (and ATCO's) would even up the numbers a bit.
Not written as well as I'd have liked, but short of time.
Basic pay differences are because there is a difference between the types of job. In answer to your question, increases should be across the board.
ATCO's should, IMHO, get paid more.
As you stated, management think that there is a surplus of ATSA's- says a lot that! Better utilisation of ATSA's (and ATCO's) would even up the numbers a bit.
Not written as well as I'd have liked, but short of time.
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2Six4
Would you please like to explain just WHAT is so good about the offer??? Its` total S***!!! Your not from LACC by any chance are you?
One really pissed off controller who will also be voting NO!!!
(By the way , I see from todays` papers that our MPs` have given themselves a 25% pension increase whilst ours`is probably going down the pan!!!)
Would you please like to explain just WHAT is so good about the offer??? Its` total S***!!! Your not from LACC by any chance are you?
One really pissed off controller who will also be voting NO!!!
(By the way , I see from todays` papers that our MPs` have given themselves a 25% pension increase whilst ours`is probably going down the pan!!!)
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Roger
That only holds true on the basis that we believed management when they said there was no more money in the pot, as this is obviously a lie then the original ballot was flawed.
BTW I voted no the first time anyhow just on general principle
That only holds true on the basis that we believed management when they said there was no more money in the pot, as this is obviously a lie then the original ballot was flawed.
BTW I voted no the first time anyhow just on general principle
Join Date: Apr 2002
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To all those I offended, sorry. Just get a bit carried away at times.
But as ATCO's we're always being reminded how we get up everyone else's noses coz of our attitudes. Some of us ARE tw4ts, admittedly. But there's a lot of us and no one seems to notice the majority of quiet, humbler controllers.
Not a dig at ATSA's either BTW, I love you lot!
As has been said, money's not the be all and end all.
So once again, sorry. Maybe I'll hold that door a little longer!
But as ATCO's we're always being reminded how we get up everyone else's noses coz of our attitudes. Some of us ARE tw4ts, admittedly. But there's a lot of us and no one seems to notice the majority of quiet, humbler controllers.
Not a dig at ATSA's either BTW, I love you lot!
As has been said, money's not the be all and end all.
So once again, sorry. Maybe I'll hold that door a little longer!
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Poodon - My opinion is personal same as yours. Considering the original offer and some very serious strings that management tried to attach to any increase, I think the end result is accepatble.
There will shortly be a working practices negotiation and management are going to have to put a value on the things they consider they need for productivity gains. They tried to get some of these things attached to the pay offer and failed.
Yes I am at LACC and no I won't be signing up for extra shifts.
There will shortly be a working practices negotiation and management are going to have to put a value on the things they consider they need for productivity gains. They tried to get some of these things attached to the pay offer and failed.
Yes I am at LACC and no I won't be signing up for extra shifts.
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2Six4
Yes, we are all entitled to an opinion and I am trying to understand yours. So go on, explain why it is so good. Forgive me if I am missing something but should not our negotiators simply have told Management to stick it when they tried to attach strings in the first place.
I personally will accept nothing less than 10% across the board on everything(including LVs` for that matter) for this year alone.
Next year we will be paying more NI and inflation is not going to go down. Do you really think, in all honesty, that this deal is acceptable? Even the council workers are more ambitious than you! Come on, We`re worth more than this wherever we work!!
Yes, we are all entitled to an opinion and I am trying to understand yours. So go on, explain why it is so good. Forgive me if I am missing something but should not our negotiators simply have told Management to stick it when they tried to attach strings in the first place.
I personally will accept nothing less than 10% across the board on everything(including LVs` for that matter) for this year alone.
Next year we will be paying more NI and inflation is not going to go down. Do you really think, in all honesty, that this deal is acceptable? Even the council workers are more ambitious than you! Come on, We`re worth more than this wherever we work!!
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Lets not run before we can walk here! We said no to the initial offer, they came back with more because thay were obviously very afraid of what might happen......lets not forget that. There is alot to be said of good faith in this matter, we have won a battle but certainly not the war. We know we are under paid as ATCO's but this is a starting block!
I am by no means completely happy with the result but at least we are getting across what we are worth. It is a long and winding road ahead, give the BEC some credit for the work they have put in. Stay together and stay strong!
Sister cf!!!
I am by no means completely happy with the result but at least we are getting across what we are worth. It is a long and winding road ahead, give the BEC some credit for the work they have put in. Stay together and stay strong!
Sister cf!!!
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Roger,
Before the last ballot, PCS said they reserved the right to re-ballot their membership if the ATCO's got an improved pay offer.
I suspect that will now happen if a meeting between PCS and management doesnt bear any fruit.
Did most of the ATSA's vote no? I have heard that they did, and that the admin staff voting yes carried the day.
BB
Before the last ballot, PCS said they reserved the right to re-ballot their membership if the ATCO's got an improved pay offer.
I suspect that will now happen if a meeting between PCS and management doesnt bear any fruit.
Did most of the ATSA's vote no? I have heard that they did, and that the admin staff voting yes carried the day.
BB
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Easy as it may be to say whilst sitting on the ATCO side of the metaphorical fence, I'm afraid ATSAs have been royally stitched up by PCS this year. The attitude of ' We'll take this but if anything better comes along we'll have that as well' was doomed to failure, and that is now coming home to roost.
It looks like you will get your 2.2% then 3.7% that your union voted for you and that's that. Why should anything be different if you reballot now than it was the first time? Are any of the overlying issues like job security changed? No. Are you prepared to go on strike to force the issue? I doubt it. Sorry, guys, but the trade union games that PCS has been playing this year (cf. the roster change debacle) has left you high and dry this time.
With regard to the ATCOs deal, my vote is for NO as well. The AAVAs start 1/9/02 but the money doesn't come until 1/10/02, and I really wonder what the long term effects will be.
The last 1.8% at the end of 03 is a red herring. The pay deal is 8.2% over 2 years and and extra 1.8% for one month. You can bet your life that when the pay round starts in 04 the first line will be: 'You've just had 1.8%, why are you asking for more already?
Sadly, I think the deal will go through as there are too many short-term thinkers who will take the money and volunteer for 20 AAVAs without thinking of the end result.
It looks like you will get your 2.2% then 3.7% that your union voted for you and that's that. Why should anything be different if you reballot now than it was the first time? Are any of the overlying issues like job security changed? No. Are you prepared to go on strike to force the issue? I doubt it. Sorry, guys, but the trade union games that PCS has been playing this year (cf. the roster change debacle) has left you high and dry this time.
With regard to the ATCOs deal, my vote is for NO as well. The AAVAs start 1/9/02 but the money doesn't come until 1/10/02, and I really wonder what the long term effects will be.
The last 1.8% at the end of 03 is a red herring. The pay deal is 8.2% over 2 years and and extra 1.8% for one month. You can bet your life that when the pay round starts in 04 the first line will be: 'You've just had 1.8%, why are you asking for more already?
Sadly, I think the deal will go through as there are too many short-term thinkers who will take the money and volunteer for 20 AAVAs without thinking of the end result.
Last edited by eyeinthesky; 19th Jul 2002 at 11:47.
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I have to agree. I think that many ATSAs feel let down by PCS now. I attended one of the PCS pay briefings before the ballot and we were told that we should vote yes because management had assurred the union that there was absolutely no more money available and that this was the best deal that we were going to get!
Can't help but think that management have been very clever. They have managed to divide the workforce and save money in the process. Almost every operational ATSA I have spoken to voted NO and I don't believe that the "YES" vote is representative of the feeling on the shop floor.
I certainly believe that my ATCO colleagues should be paid substantially more, but equally, I'm not sure that it is fair to offer different pay increases to different grades within the remit of the annual pay talks. This is a road we haven't been down before and I just wonder where it will lead in the future.
Can't help but think that management have been very clever. They have managed to divide the workforce and save money in the process. Almost every operational ATSA I have spoken to voted NO and I don't believe that the "YES" vote is representative of the feeling on the shop floor.
I certainly believe that my ATCO colleagues should be paid substantially more, but equally, I'm not sure that it is fair to offer different pay increases to different grades within the remit of the annual pay talks. This is a road we haven't been down before and I just wonder where it will lead in the future.
Last edited by Karoshi; 19th Jul 2002 at 12:12.
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You are bang on eyeinthesky with
"The last 1.8% at the end of 03 is a red herring. The pay deal is 8.2% over 2 years and and extra 1.8% for one month. You can bet your life that when the pay round starts in 04 the first line will be: 'You've just had 1.8%, why are you asking for more already?"
After my extra 1% NI contributions and inflation its hardly worth having - Its a definite no from me as well.
All this overtime at 500 quid a throw is a load of guff as well, obviously geared towards people at Nerc with nothing better to do with their lives.
I reckon the vote will be pretty close though and if the No vote prevails with a slim majority will there be a sufficient mandate for a strike?
Discuss below ........
"The last 1.8% at the end of 03 is a red herring. The pay deal is 8.2% over 2 years and and extra 1.8% for one month. You can bet your life that when the pay round starts in 04 the first line will be: 'You've just had 1.8%, why are you asking for more already?"
After my extra 1% NI contributions and inflation its hardly worth having - Its a definite no from me as well.
All this overtime at 500 quid a throw is a load of guff as well, obviously geared towards people at Nerc with nothing better to do with their lives.
I reckon the vote will be pretty close though and if the No vote prevails with a slim majority will there be a sufficient mandate for a strike?
Discuss below ........
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Why would a rise of 1.8% be a red herring or nothing at all ? That 1.8% is permanently on your salary until you retire and increases every spine point value for those who are still climbing the salary ladder.
We have had many staged deals before and some have had a payment immediately before a new negotiation takes place. Nothing in NATS pay negotiations history says this will be a factor in setting the next pay rise.
Why do I think it is a good deal ? Because in exchange for changing a couple of non operational days to possibly operational I get a permanent 10% pay rise at the end of the 2 year period.
All the rest is entirely at your discretion. If you want to work extra days go ahead. If you think you should get paid £830 per day then don't work until they pay you that amount. As I said the negotiators did a good job in remaining firmly against any committment for any of us to work extra days voluntarily. I'll take my salary and the time off thanks.
Don't you think that management have just shot themselves in the foot ?
As has been said they have seriously upset the rest of the staff who believed Mr Everready when he said there was no more money available.
They have to come back to the ATCOs and ATSAs for a WPP negotiation. The ATSAs will rightly want to make up ground after being duped.
One of the management aims of WPP negotiations will be extra attendances. They have now set a value of every extra voluntary day worked at somewhere between £540 and £830. That is going to be the calculation of money saved for every day of extra productivity. Nobody is going to get me to vote for any cumpulsory extra attendance which is not valued at .at least that starting figure.
Add that to more flexible shift start and finish times and it is going to be a very expensive negotiation to get us to move.
So, having separated the basic pay from any productivity negotiations, I am happy to vote yes to this and no to a WPP deal which does not come up to expectation.
We have had many staged deals before and some have had a payment immediately before a new negotiation takes place. Nothing in NATS pay negotiations history says this will be a factor in setting the next pay rise.
Why do I think it is a good deal ? Because in exchange for changing a couple of non operational days to possibly operational I get a permanent 10% pay rise at the end of the 2 year period.
All the rest is entirely at your discretion. If you want to work extra days go ahead. If you think you should get paid £830 per day then don't work until they pay you that amount. As I said the negotiators did a good job in remaining firmly against any committment for any of us to work extra days voluntarily. I'll take my salary and the time off thanks.
Don't you think that management have just shot themselves in the foot ?
As has been said they have seriously upset the rest of the staff who believed Mr Everready when he said there was no more money available.
They have to come back to the ATCOs and ATSAs for a WPP negotiation. The ATSAs will rightly want to make up ground after being duped.
One of the management aims of WPP negotiations will be extra attendances. They have now set a value of every extra voluntary day worked at somewhere between £540 and £830. That is going to be the calculation of money saved for every day of extra productivity. Nobody is going to get me to vote for any cumpulsory extra attendance which is not valued at .at least that starting figure.
Add that to more flexible shift start and finish times and it is going to be a very expensive negotiation to get us to move.
So, having separated the basic pay from any productivity negotiations, I am happy to vote yes to this and no to a WPP deal which does not come up to expectation.
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Is it any wonder that we are supposedly the "second worst paid" controllers in Europe. We are in a position where we have got them by the b***s and people are prepared to settle for this crap!!!
Is it any wonder that the pay & conditions of the Spanish & French collegues are far superior to ours. And, before anyones says the obvious, yes , I would like to work in Spain but would they let me in???
(They should do because I am prepared to take industrial action to achieve what i think i am worth!!!
)
Do I hear the sound of "lets keep our powder dry for the WPP negotiations"
Is it any wonder that the pay & conditions of the Spanish & French collegues are far superior to ours. And, before anyones says the obvious, yes , I would like to work in Spain but would they let me in???
(They should do because I am prepared to take industrial action to achieve what i think i am worth!!! )Do I hear the sound of "lets keep our powder dry for the WPP negotiations"
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Friendly controller et al
Sister, do your BEC deserve credit for getting a 10% pay deal? No, one shouldn't attempt to run before one can walk- but have they actually tried crawling (pardon the poor joke) before walking? What would your definition of walking be in this case? They give the impression of being a bit toothless quite frankly and easily fobbed off!
I must add my congratulations to the Management team in that they have a "headline" pay offer on the table (including the bit that won't kick in until the sought after 2 year deal has nearly finished), dragged all sorts of extras into a "pay deal" that really have no connection with, or any business being associated with, pay. The boys and girls at LATCC are thrown a "sweetener" which, again, is a "headliner" to try and sway (or at least divide) the vote there whilst the rest of the country will just vote yes anyway (probably) because 10% is the mythical figure every ATCO apparently aspires to- usually over one year but the “grab it while you can” brigade will win in the end (ignoring that the reality of the deal is 4.25% this year, 5.5% next- God, you lot are gullible!). Whereas your union brethren in the civil service jump up and down and actually DO strike, over a greater offer, the predictable ATCOs, well, don’t. Remember your mandate to strike over PPP? Remember what happened? Anyone try to take a tube yesterday?
To those who suggest that the BEC may be self-serving over the buy-back of TOIL, you may say that but I couldn’t possibly comment!
I’ll try not to leave it so long before my next message, oh little ones.
I must add my congratulations to the Management team in that they have a "headline" pay offer on the table (including the bit that won't kick in until the sought after 2 year deal has nearly finished), dragged all sorts of extras into a "pay deal" that really have no connection with, or any business being associated with, pay. The boys and girls at LATCC are thrown a "sweetener" which, again, is a "headliner" to try and sway (or at least divide) the vote there whilst the rest of the country will just vote yes anyway (probably) because 10% is the mythical figure every ATCO apparently aspires to- usually over one year but the “grab it while you can” brigade will win in the end (ignoring that the reality of the deal is 4.25% this year, 5.5% next- God, you lot are gullible!). Whereas your union brethren in the civil service jump up and down and actually DO strike, over a greater offer, the predictable ATCOs, well, don’t. Remember your mandate to strike over PPP? Remember what happened? Anyone try to take a tube yesterday?
To those who suggest that the BEC may be self-serving over the buy-back of TOIL, you may say that but I couldn’t possibly comment!
I’ll try not to leave it so long before my next message, oh little ones.
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Hey!!!
I'm only offering my opinion, no need to get so personal. In case anyone thinks otherwise, I am not on the BEC. There is noone on the BEC who lives in sunny NI.
Back to the point, we asked for more, we got it. Not as straightforward as we might have hoped but as I said it is a start.
Someone who is quite close to me who is a rep for another union, nothing to do with atc, told me all along that management would offer more, they had to. Now it is up to us, this is what negotiation is all about. If we walk out now, just how greedy will we look, do you not think management will lay it on thick about the state of the industry post 911. We know most of it is cr@p but that will not stop them.
As I have said personal opinion, I thought we were still able to express those in the UK.
Regards
cf
I'm only offering my opinion, no need to get so personal. In case anyone thinks otherwise, I am not on the BEC. There is noone on the BEC who lives in sunny NI.
Back to the point, we asked for more, we got it. Not as straightforward as we might have hoped but as I said it is a start.
Someone who is quite close to me who is a rep for another union, nothing to do with atc, told me all along that management would offer more, they had to. Now it is up to us, this is what negotiation is all about. If we walk out now, just how greedy will we look, do you not think management will lay it on thick about the state of the industry post 911. We know most of it is cr@p but that will not stop them.
As I have said personal opinion, I thought we were still able to express those in the UK.
Regards
cf