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Fruitbat - I think you should be careful when telling people about our salaries to not include things like overtime and OFP. OFP and overtime are not part of your salary and are therefore not gaurenteed income. Not everyone wants to work 9 on and 1 off to max out on overtime, and, from what I'm hearing, in places like Toronto and Vancouver ACCs the availablity of overtime has all but gone. You can't tell a controller there that they can work max overtime to supplement their incomes. BTW - where in Canada do you work?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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If you ask me after working for those morons in Navcanada for a few years, they would be as worse as any ATC employer that I have seen.
They treat their staff like ****, and the union and most of its members are basically toothless and the management know it and make full use of it.
As far as salary goes, it takes 11 years to get up to max salary as they will not pay for years of experience, basically akin to slavery. Trust me you would be better off staying where you are.
TTFN
They treat their staff like ****, and the union and most of its members are basically toothless and the management know it and make full use of it.
As far as salary goes, it takes 11 years to get up to max salary as they will not pay for years of experience, basically akin to slavery. Trust me you would be better off staying where you are.
TTFN
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PMS - You make some good points and I understand your bitterness. However, I'm not sure calling the majority of CATCA members "toothless" is a fair assement. Sounds to me like you had a bad experience and are blaming your ex-coworkers.
I'm also not sure how having to work your way up the pay scales is akin to slavery. I'll assume by your post that you have ATC experience elsewhere, and were not happy that you wouldn't be put somewhere near the top of the pay scales upon check-out. To me, it's reasonable to start at the bottom and work your way up like everyone else.
I'm also not sure how having to work your way up the pay scales is akin to slavery. I'll assume by your post that you have ATC experience elsewhere, and were not happy that you wouldn't be put somewhere near the top of the pay scales upon check-out. To me, it's reasonable to start at the bottom and work your way up like everyone else.
Last edited by YWG ATC; 17th Jul 2002 at 04:19.
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YWG
I totally agree with BOTH your posts. However at some of the ACC's NOT mentioned there is LOTS of overtime (depending on your sector/specialty) needless to say those sectors/specialties have lower check out rates etc.
I was only quoting the max possible as I quoted the minimum (no overtime bottom increment). I provided all the math for people to work out that IT IS a lot of work to max out. If people don't want O/T they can take the 100K a year in years 11 plus and enjoy it!! And, 50%+ of the staff are not "spring chickens" so they are gone within 10 years.
If you want to know where I am email me
Hows life in YWG hot I'll bet!
I was only quoting the max possible as I quoted the minimum (no overtime bottom increment). I provided all the math for people to work out that IT IS a lot of work to max out. If people don't want O/T they can take the 100K a year in years 11 plus and enjoy it!! And, 50%+ of the staff are not "spring chickens" so they are gone within 10 years.
If you want to know where I am email me
Hows life in YWG hot I'll bet!
Last edited by The Crimson Fruitbat; 20th Jul 2002 at 09:13.
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Trust me, in Winnipeg I know all about lots of overtime. It's absurd the staffing situation here, but that's a whole other issue. As for my previous post, I didn't mean to imply that you were tricking people on what controllers earn, I just think that when asked "how much do you make?" that base salary is only answer. In your example you give the figures for a maxed out YZ controller and they don't have the option of maxing out any more (from what my friends there are telling me). If he/she doesn't work 10 days in a month, then he/she won't get the OFP either. All your left with is base salary. Why the big secret about where your at? Hmmm... I'll guess Edmonton and you can e-mail me if I'm wrong.
Life in WG is anything but HOT (that's why I'm at home in front of a computer and not somewhere else), unless you're referring to the temperature/humidity, in which case, yes it's hot.
Life in WG is anything but HOT (that's why I'm at home in front of a computer and not somewhere else), unless you're referring to the temperature/humidity, in which case, yes it's hot.
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Yeah I was talking about the weather! 
I agree with you completely once again reference pay, but if YVR and YYZ are fully staffed and others are maxed out? How long will this situation last?
The CATCA website ( www.catca.ca ) makes referance to "the aging " work force and the current "problems" with staffing.
Its a known fact that the Americans, Brits, and mainland Europeans are also going to lose 30 to 60% of their workforce through retirement before 2010. In the American case they have tabled it in Congress and are talking 5,000+.
To keep it alive in the interim we need some attractive pay to attract the RIGHT young new entrants that the industry needs; keep throwing good $$ at the old farts to keep them in until the young ones are recruited/trained; and, make the system attractive to trained foreigners like the computer, aerospace, medical industries etc.
The highest bidder wins in the short term!!
I agree with you completely once again reference pay, but if YVR and YYZ are fully staffed and others are maxed out? How long will this situation last?
The CATCA website ( www.catca.ca ) makes referance to "the aging " work force and the current "problems" with staffing.
Its a known fact that the Americans, Brits, and mainland Europeans are also going to lose 30 to 60% of their workforce through retirement before 2010. In the American case they have tabled it in Congress and are talking 5,000+.
To keep it alive in the interim we need some attractive pay to attract the RIGHT young new entrants that the industry needs; keep throwing good $$ at the old farts to keep them in until the young ones are recruited/trained; and, make the system attractive to trained foreigners like the computer, aerospace, medical industries etc.
The highest bidder wins in the short term!!
Last edited by The Crimson Fruitbat; 17th Jul 2002 at 04:33.
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Well I worked in Toronto ACC, left there about 2 years ago and am now in Geneva Switzerland... In reply to one of my former Canadian collegues, you think not being paid for your experience is fair? So what is your opinion about a Canadian that leaves and then comes back.. does he have to start at the bottom of the scale? Do you realize Canada is the only place hiring expats who does not recognize your experience?
As for the person posting salaries.. NO ONE I REPEAT NO ONE these days in Toronto ACC is maxing out on overtime. It is very misleading to write what you did. Even in the "good" days, only 10% or less were making that type of money. The average salary you can expect to make in Canada working at highest paid ACC is 100.000.
As for the person posting salaries.. NO ONE I REPEAT NO ONE these days in Toronto ACC is maxing out on overtime. It is very misleading to write what you did. Even in the "good" days, only 10% or less were making that type of money. The average salary you can expect to make in Canada working at highest paid ACC is 100.000.
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Working overtime being part of the "culture" is at least problematic, since an ATC employer does not urgently have to hire additional staff.
It would be different, if the consequence of a staff shortage would be closed sectors and therefore less capacity, which would put more pressure on the employer.
Working 9 on 1 off is simply irresponsible.
It would be different, if the consequence of a staff shortage would be closed sectors and therefore less capacity, which would put more pressure on the employer.
Working 9 on 1 off is simply irresponsible.
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EuroATC - Do I think not being paid for your experience is fair? What I do think is that everyone starting an ATC career for Nav Canada, regardless of past experience, be that ATC elsewhere, pilot experience, tower, or FSS, has to start off at the bottom and has to work their way up. It applies to everyone equally across the board, and I think that's fair. Where on the ATC application form does it say "Salary commsurate with experience" or something to that effect? I didn't know that Canada was the only country that does not pay you for your experience, I've never had a reason to know that. However, I would think that someone who's looking to come to Canada would know this information before they received their first pay cheque. Therefore, if they don't like the offer, stay put.
Do I think that someone should be able take off for greener pastures, get there and find out that maybe it wasn't as grand as one thought, that they should be able to come back a few years later and pick up right where they left off? No.
Do I think that someone should be able take off for greener pastures, get there and find out that maybe it wasn't as grand as one thought, that they should be able to come back a few years later and pick up right where they left off? No.
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Ahhhhhhh, the good old days, when I left the UK and applied for YYZ ACC, I was asked at the interview what increment I felt I should start at to reflect previous experience (I was expecting to start at the first), not only did they start me at 4th increment, they applied it from day 1, not after check-out!! Gues I was lucky there!!
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wow..short sighted!
Mr Ywg, first, I agree, a kid, an FSS, someone with zero ATC experience should start at the bottom. As for foreigners coming to work for NavCAn, there is a different deal for everyone, and NavCan makes that very clear, their policy is that there is no policy. The only real policy they have is that if you leave and come back you start at base which is meant to be punitive and discourage others from leaving.
You think all the ones that left Canada for other place "left for greener pastures" Come wake up, NavCanada is a good place to work, some might not agree but you are judging those that left with your statement. Don't judge people. I left to experience something new, to work in a busier ATC unit and to challenge myself. I did that, I didn't leave because the grass was greener somewhere else because it isn't.
Now I have a question for you, are you one that works 9 days on and 1 off whenever you can? You guys should be carefull, CATCA complains about staffing and the lack of it but then people like yourself think that an air traffic controller from another country with let's say 10 years experience should be paid the same as a guy who just checked out??? Come on... Open your eyes a little.
You think all the ones that left Canada for other place "left for greener pastures" Come wake up, NavCanada is a good place to work, some might not agree but you are judging those that left with your statement. Don't judge people. I left to experience something new, to work in a busier ATC unit and to challenge myself. I did that, I didn't leave because the grass was greener somewhere else because it isn't.
Now I have a question for you, are you one that works 9 days on and 1 off whenever you can? You guys should be carefull, CATCA complains about staffing and the lack of it but then people like yourself think that an air traffic controller from another country with let's say 10 years experience should be paid the same as a guy who just checked out??? Come on... Open your eyes a little.
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I totally agree with EuroATC.
There's various reasons why I would never join NavCanada:
No penal rates (except for the 9$ between certain hours, a bloody joke BTW!).
Working overtime being part of the job.
Working up to 9 days in a row (absolutely unthinkable!).
Previous experience not being acknowledged (totally out of date compared to other ATC providers, who employ expats on a bigger scale!).
And BTW, if I went back to where I've worked before, I would get paid what I used to earn when I left!
There's various reasons why I would never join NavCanada:
No penal rates (except for the 9$ between certain hours, a bloody joke BTW!).
Working overtime being part of the job.
Working up to 9 days in a row (absolutely unthinkable!).
Previous experience not being acknowledged (totally out of date compared to other ATC providers, who employ expats on a bigger scale!).
And BTW, if I went back to where I've worked before, I would get paid what I used to earn when I left!
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EuroATC - I think ex-EGLL proved your point wrong. You say that Nav Can doesn't honour previous experience and they should, he's saying, and proving, they do. I'm saying, I have no idea what Nav Can does and doesn't offer controllers from other places who want to work in Canada as I have no reason to know, and to be truthful, I don't care. You asked if I thought it was fair, and if it's applied to everyone the same (ie everyone at the bottom), then, yes, I think it's fair. Is it right? Don't know, don't care. But since this appears to not be the case, this whole debate is pointless.
I do think that everyone who leaves here for other places left for "greener pastures", why else would they leave? People make these sorts of changes in their lives because they want something better and more fulfilling, I use the term "greener pastures" you can call it whatever you like. These seem to be the same reasons why you moved on. Now that you've been there for some time, perhaps the novelty of being in Europe has worn off, maybe you're home sick, miss family and friends, miss check-out parties at Norma Jeans (I too used to work in YZ
). I certainly wasn't trying to judge you, and if that's how I came across, I offer an apology to you and the others I've offended.
As for overtime, I work what is assigned to me. I don't take call ins. I have call-display, and don't answer the phone if it's work calling. That being said, there are people here to do work as much overtime as possible. As much as I don't agree with it, it's their life, not mine.
This company is in a controller staffing crises (at least in Winnipeg), but instead of staffing us with older controllers, that Nav Canada can lure from other places, who are 10 years from retirement , I'd rather see us hire good local kids that will be here for the long term.
Proceed As Cleared - you also help my point, you don't like the terms, so you're not applying. I'm sure it's our loss
I do think that everyone who leaves here for other places left for "greener pastures", why else would they leave? People make these sorts of changes in their lives because they want something better and more fulfilling, I use the term "greener pastures" you can call it whatever you like. These seem to be the same reasons why you moved on. Now that you've been there for some time, perhaps the novelty of being in Europe has worn off, maybe you're home sick, miss family and friends, miss check-out parties at Norma Jeans (I too used to work in YZ
). I certainly wasn't trying to judge you, and if that's how I came across, I offer an apology to you and the others I've offended.As for overtime, I work what is assigned to me. I don't take call ins. I have call-display, and don't answer the phone if it's work calling. That being said, there are people here to do work as much overtime as possible. As much as I don't agree with it, it's their life, not mine.
This company is in a controller staffing crises (at least in Winnipeg), but instead of staffing us with older controllers, that Nav Canada can lure from other places, who are 10 years from retirement , I'd rather see us hire good local kids that will be here for the long term.
Proceed As Cleared - you also help my point, you don't like the terms, so you're not applying. I'm sure it's our loss
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In the US for the most part, if you hire into the agency as a controller, unless you hire in from the military after holding a controller job as a civilian. You start out at the bottom and it doesn't matter how much experience that you have...
regards
regards
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Well, Scott, since the FAA doesn't hire any expats anyway, were there ever any experienced controllers (except for military) this "starting-at-the-bottom-rule" would have applied to??
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FRUITBAT
Tell me if this is wrong. There is no AI-05 salary step at $82,000. There is $80696 or $83,173. Top increment is $90,582. Then there is the centre pay which is $8,990 for Edmonton. AND you can't spell.
Tell me if this is wrong. There is no AI-05 salary step at $82,000. There is $80696 or $83,173. Top increment is $90,582. Then there is the centre pay which is $8,990 for Edmonton. AND you can't spell.
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As I wrote:
Its actually $82,282
Its Toronto's OFP as part of the calculation and has nothing to do with Edmonton.
Toronto ACC 1st increment: $82K Canadian (Ai-05-Operational+YZ OFP)
Its Toronto's OFP as part of the calculation and has nothing to do with Edmonton.
Last edited by The Crimson Fruitbat; 20th Jul 2002 at 09:15.
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Fruitbat!
You are one rude bastard. Couldn't you get work in OZ? Or did your last employer sack you? Either your employer is posting incorrect information to potential applicants or you are sucking on too many beers. From what information I received, there is only one AI-05 pay scale. If general politeness is a characteristic of Canadian children then wise up.
You are one rude bastard. Couldn't you get work in OZ? Or did your last employer sack you? Either your employer is posting incorrect information to potential applicants or you are sucking on too many beers. From what information I received, there is only one AI-05 pay scale. If general politeness is a characteristic of Canadian children then wise up.