Stuff in Sunday Mirror
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Greebson, it's far from contempt, on the contrary I have the greatest respect for those who 'do the job' and earn the money. As we have seen tragically these last few days the consequences of a mistake are utterly unthinkable and the responsibility almost unmeasurable.
Which is why I fail to understand why certain (by no means all) alledged ATCO posters to this forum need to belittle non-oprational staff as a way of justifying their own case. The ATCO case is self evident to any sane person without this attitude. Can't speak for the "suits" but those in NATS who support the operation (engineers, ATSAs, MSGs) do their job with responsibility and commitment. Yes you guys are the front end but there is much behind the scenes that make it possible for you to exercise the privilege of your licence.
Incidentally I would also not dispute that we have too much management. Unfortunately the MSG grade is all encompassing and perhaps the M for management is slightly misleading as everyone who is not an engineer or ATSA seems to be an MSG now.
Finally, no I don't think controllers are grossly underpaid BUT I do think that they have fallen behind their equivalents in other countries and I do think the ATCO2 scale in particular is too long - there is much to be said for "same responsibility = same pay" I feel, although the initial cost would be high.
Which is why I fail to understand why certain (by no means all) alledged ATCO posters to this forum need to belittle non-oprational staff as a way of justifying their own case. The ATCO case is self evident to any sane person without this attitude. Can't speak for the "suits" but those in NATS who support the operation (engineers, ATSAs, MSGs) do their job with responsibility and commitment. Yes you guys are the front end but there is much behind the scenes that make it possible for you to exercise the privilege of your licence.
Incidentally I would also not dispute that we have too much management. Unfortunately the MSG grade is all encompassing and perhaps the M for management is slightly misleading as everyone who is not an engineer or ATSA seems to be an MSG now.
Finally, no I don't think controllers are grossly underpaid BUT I do think that they have fallen behind their equivalents in other countries and I do think the ATCO2 scale in particular is too long - there is much to be said for "same responsibility = same pay" I feel, although the initial cost would be high.
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S8D, I'm a little confused about your belief that we as ATCO's belittle our ATSA and Engineer colleagues, yes, we are at the sharp end of things and have a lot of responsibility, but we CANNOT do our job efficiently without the suport of the assistants or the engineers.
I don't know one single ATCO who has anyhting but the utmost respect for the jobs that our support staff do, granted there are personality conflicts, but that's bound to happen.
I for one am grateful for the help and advice I've got from people who whilst they are not at the sharp end of the RT, have a wealth of experience to offer and I am grateful that in the 10 years I've been doing this job, they have felt able to offer their advice and help.
I don't know one single ATCO who has anyhting but the utmost respect for the jobs that our support staff do, granted there are personality conflicts, but that's bound to happen.
I for one am grateful for the help and advice I've got from people who whilst they are not at the sharp end of the RT, have a wealth of experience to offer and I am grateful that in the 10 years I've been doing this job, they have felt able to offer their advice and help.
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As we at the blunt end have a great deal of respect for you and yours 707. Indeed if we were clever enough (or clever in the right way if you prefer) then we'd be doing your job. And before anyone snaps my hand off it takes different skills to be an ATCO just as it does to be an engineer or chocolate teapot... errr... I meant manager. I know I couldn't do the job of an ATCO, and 90% of the ATCOs might admit that they couln't do my job. we all need to get over this god awful attitude that seems to be there. The "them and us" one. Were all getting screwed twice by management in the same way, and all this in-fighting is helping our friends whose job it is to ruin and rule us. We need to get our voices together costhen maybe we can get something done. Ok, I pass the soap box. As for pay? Well, these e-mails I keep getting from someone who I've never heard of telling me they had yet another meeting to discuss something seem somewhat pointless. Who cares if the union wasters and management lot have had yet another round of cucumber sandwhiches? We want results, not excuses. It would be nice if the minutes from one of these "positive" meetings were published so we could see where our union dues are going and also when our pay deal is going to get agreed. I know it's not ours in the sense of mine as an engineer, but it will affect all of us when it eventually comes. And yes, I'm still sore I forgot to vote. Lets hope we hear something useful soon.
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Compare MSG1 with ATCO2. There is not much difference in basic. The MSG wont get UHP though although some do get 25% UHP or SDA. For MSG2 its pathetic.....
I think the 'them and us' thing is getting a bit out of hand - all staff who keep the units working should show some solidarity - ATCOs, engineers, computer boffs, the folk that clean up in the ops room after us messy atcos -
- its the office wallers that get on my t*ts. The ones who growl at you when you dare invade their territory and look down at anyone who doesnt come to work in a Burton suit and polyester tie!
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Ask any pilot who has had their bacon pulled out of the fire by the quick actions of a controller, or ask the pilot who was lost and recieved help from a controller, or ask the pilot who lost his engine/s, or instruments in IFR conditions and was guided to a safe landing by a controller, (etc.) if controllers are over paid.
We may sit there in front of our scopes or up in the tower sounding board, or we may sound as if we aren't doing much, but when things are going bad, the controller is there to safely help the pilot through what ever situation they find themselves in.
Mike
FWA
We may sit there in front of our scopes or up in the tower sounding board, or we may sound as if we aren't doing much, but when things are going bad, the controller is there to safely help the pilot through what ever situation they find themselves in.
Mike
FWA
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FWA, you've hit the nail on the head, as I've saidf in posts on earlier threads, a pilot earns his / her moneyt when things go wrong, but what's the first thing they do???
reach for a manual, or ask the computer!!
When things go wrong for an ATCO, be it a separation problem, or an emegency then we have no manual to reach for, we've got to deal with the situation there and then. I've been sat on radar at EGPF and had to deal with 3 emergencies at the same time, no book can tell me what to do, I've got to deal with it and deal with it I do, that's my job, it's what I do, I don't want praise from the public, I don't want thanks from the aircrew (although it would be nice occasionally), I want to be valued for what I do, is that unreasonable???
reach for a manual, or ask the computer!!
When things go wrong for an ATCO, be it a separation problem, or an emegency then we have no manual to reach for, we've got to deal with the situation there and then. I've been sat on radar at EGPF and had to deal with 3 emergencies at the same time, no book can tell me what to do, I've got to deal with it and deal with it I do, that's my job, it's what I do, I don't want praise from the public, I don't want thanks from the aircrew (although it would be nice occasionally), I want to be valued for what I do, is that unreasonable???
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Hope I did manage to clarify my views a bit in the last post . However I am curious (no names of course - I mean it!) exactly which "office wallers" do you guys feel are of no use? Who growls at you? OROs or who? What do they do, and can it be done without?
It's not that I disbelieve you, I just don't know anyone (or department) who behaves in this way but I guess they may exist.
If this is really a problem, then with due care and tact, perhaps we should indicate which area(s) this problem is in - in the hope that some constructive discussion and changes may ensue.
R707, I am also a little confused as to where the line is drawn between those whose contribution is of use and those whose contribution is not? Is the person who processes your T&RE of use? Is the NSS (as was) software engineer of use? Are the guys who ensure that the LTCC building is safe and functioning of use? Are SDI of any use? (Oops I know that one) I just don't (as above) quite understand who is "swinging the lead", but perhaps I don't have enough exposure to NATS in general.
These are honest questions, I am not being cynical or trying to be controversial, I genuinely don't know who we mean!
It's not that I disbelieve you, I just don't know anyone (or department) who behaves in this way but I guess they may exist.
If this is really a problem, then with due care and tact, perhaps we should indicate which area(s) this problem is in - in the hope that some constructive discussion and changes may ensue.
R707, I am also a little confused as to where the line is drawn between those whose contribution is of use and those whose contribution is not? Is the person who processes your T&RE of use? Is the NSS (as was) software engineer of use? Are the guys who ensure that the LTCC building is safe and functioning of use? Are SDI of any use? (Oops I know that one) I just don't (as above) quite understand who is "swinging the lead", but perhaps I don't have enough exposure to NATS in general.
These are honest questions, I am not being cynical or trying to be controversial, I genuinely don't know who we mean!
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S8D:
I think in one breath some of the posters mean everyone who isn't an ATCO (I can hear the war drum beating to that comment...), and then in the next breath the person who sits there in a suit deciding our future with no real risk to themselves or their job. It has to be said that 99% of the people who inhabit the centers (can't comment for the airports or other places such a Spectrum House or 1KS) do have a useful function. Maybe we're at a loss to know what that function is, but they still have a purpose. A small anecdote comes to mind from one of those god awful management lectuers I used to have to go to. A janitor was sweeping the floors at the Kenedy Space center and a top manager asks him what he does there. He points to the space shuttle and says "help that thing get in the air". Bottom line is most of us have a useful function. It all depends on your job role as to what and who you think are useful.
I think in one breath some of the posters mean everyone who isn't an ATCO (I can hear the war drum beating to that comment...), and then in the next breath the person who sits there in a suit deciding our future with no real risk to themselves or their job. It has to be said that 99% of the people who inhabit the centers (can't comment for the airports or other places such a Spectrum House or 1KS) do have a useful function. Maybe we're at a loss to know what that function is, but they still have a purpose. A small anecdote comes to mind from one of those god awful management lectuers I used to have to go to. A janitor was sweeping the floors at the Kenedy Space center and a top manager asks him what he does there. He points to the space shuttle and says "help that thing get in the air". Bottom line is most of us have a useful function. It all depends on your job role as to what and who you think are useful.
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Radar 707,
I actually had the pilot from a recent emergency stop by the facility and insisted that the supervisor allow him to thank me personnally for saving his and his passengers lives. I was awed and impressed that he took the time to stop by, because it was only the second time this has happened in 17 years.
Mike
FWA
I actually had the pilot from a recent emergency stop by the facility and insisted that the supervisor allow him to thank me personnally for saving his and his passengers lives. I was awed and impressed that he took the time to stop by, because it was only the second time this has happened in 17 years.
Mike
FWA
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Jumping the gun
Dear S8D,
I have not been on PPRUNE for a few days and have therefore not had a chance to read your sadly typical non-ATCO reply, which unfortunately jumps the gun as usual.
I made no reference at all to people who work outside the ATCO structure apart from the fact that we should all be looking for a decent rise. Unfortunately, if the vast majority of the other branches vote for a poor pay deal, what can they expect.
You also assumed wrongly that I was referring to management jobs in the MSG grade. I am referring to the many ATCO graded management posts, or non op jobs which progress quicker than an operational controllers salary, is that fair?
I for one know a lot of people inside NATS who are not ATCO's and have the utmost respect for the jobs that they do, however, their job or salary structure was not the topic of discussion.
Perhaps next time you should ensure that you read the article in the context within which it is written before you get on your high horse and start tarring everyone with the same "big headed ATCO" brush that you appear to be wielding.
I don't suppose an apology will be forthcoming though
I have not been on PPRUNE for a few days and have therefore not had a chance to read your sadly typical non-ATCO reply, which unfortunately jumps the gun as usual.
I made no reference at all to people who work outside the ATCO structure apart from the fact that we should all be looking for a decent rise. Unfortunately, if the vast majority of the other branches vote for a poor pay deal, what can they expect.
You also assumed wrongly that I was referring to management jobs in the MSG grade. I am referring to the many ATCO graded management posts, or non op jobs which progress quicker than an operational controllers salary, is that fair?
I for one know a lot of people inside NATS who are not ATCO's and have the utmost respect for the jobs that they do, however, their job or salary structure was not the topic of discussion.
Perhaps next time you should ensure that you read the article in the context within which it is written before you get on your high horse and start tarring everyone with the same "big headed ATCO" brush that you appear to be wielding.
I don't suppose an apology will be forthcoming though
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FWA NATCA,
So was the firefighter putting his life at risk pulling smokies from wreckage. So was the radar tech/radio tech/lighting tech etc etc etc etc that was up all night fixing testing and repairing. Its a team thing you know?
So was the firefighter putting his life at risk pulling smokies from wreckage. So was the radar tech/radio tech/lighting tech etc etc etc etc that was up all night fixing testing and repairing. Its a team thing you know?
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S8D
let me clarify then....And Im sorry but I can only comment on Swanwick;
I dont' doubt for a minute that everyone at the unit has an important job to do and Im not knocking any support staff here. For a start, there are a lot of desks in Swanwick I have never been to - so Im not going to suggest that the occupants of those little corners of the world (so nicely decorated with posters, pictures and other paraphanalia completely unrelated to the job in hand) are not providing some important function.
So, now that the disclaimer is out of the way - Im sure we all remember the lovely welome to Swanwick pack which contained the nice letter which effectively said
"the place is going live, but please don't spoil our lovely working environment with your nasty operational staff attitudes"
Instant them and us attitude.
There are those in the building who still harbour these feelings. Take, for example, the personnel office - there is at least one member of staff in there who reacts to everything like it is a major problem or that ATCOs/ATSAs are just trying to cause bother. There is another member of staff who has been most helpful and understanding whenever I have been in with a query - I wonder if that person is new to working with operational staff?
There are plenty other examples, but my post is getting long enough as it is.
Just one more point - does anyone else think that 2 librarians is a bit much in that size of place? and what do they do all day? I've only ever seen them eating sandwiches at their desk and looking hard done by when I ask for a new MATS part 2 CD.
let me clarify then....And Im sorry but I can only comment on Swanwick;
I dont' doubt for a minute that everyone at the unit has an important job to do and Im not knocking any support staff here. For a start, there are a lot of desks in Swanwick I have never been to - so Im not going to suggest that the occupants of those little corners of the world (so nicely decorated with posters, pictures and other paraphanalia completely unrelated to the job in hand) are not providing some important function.
So, now that the disclaimer is out of the way - Im sure we all remember the lovely welome to Swanwick pack which contained the nice letter which effectively said
"the place is going live, but please don't spoil our lovely working environment with your nasty operational staff attitudes"
Instant them and us attitude.
There are those in the building who still harbour these feelings. Take, for example, the personnel office - there is at least one member of staff in there who reacts to everything like it is a major problem or that ATCOs/ATSAs are just trying to cause bother. There is another member of staff who has been most helpful and understanding whenever I have been in with a query - I wonder if that person is new to working with operational staff?
There are plenty other examples, but my post is getting long enough as it is.
Just one more point - does anyone else think that 2 librarians is a bit much in that size of place? and what do they do all day? I've only ever seen them eating sandwiches at their desk and looking hard done by when I ask for a new MATS part 2 CD.
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Minesapint,
Our AF Techs don't work nights, weekends, or holidays, so unless it's an urgently needed repair they won't come in to fix anything that breaks.
But on the note of TEAMWORK, never have I seen a better example of TEAMWORK than at the EAA Air Venture Show that is held in OSH (Oshkosh Wisconsin) every July. Every controller, AF Tech, and AFSS person that works during that show has put the letter "T" in Teamwork.
Mike R
FWA
Oshkosh bound again
Our AF Techs don't work nights, weekends, or holidays, so unless it's an urgently needed repair they won't come in to fix anything that breaks.
But on the note of TEAMWORK, never have I seen a better example of TEAMWORK than at the EAA Air Venture Show that is held in OSH (Oshkosh Wisconsin) every July. Every controller, AF Tech, and AFSS person that works during that show has put the letter "T" in Teamwork.
Mike R
FWA
Oshkosh bound again
