OJTI's - How do YOU train?
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OJTI's - How do YOU train?
Do you train in such a way that you chop people before they reach validation standard, just to show how good you are, or do you train in such a way that trainees reach validation standard, and make it, thereby easing the workload to yourselves?
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Co-ord Unaffected
Either you have a serious chip on your shoulder or you didn't phrase this post particularly well.
IMHO I and all of my fellow mentors train to an exacting standard with parity and fairness. It is a difficult task, especially in the LTMA for example. (Contentious perhaps, but maybe those OJTIs who train in the busiest of environments should receive renumeration commensurate with the larger amount of a/c than those who train in less busy environments...?)
Face it. Some trainees make it, some don't. There is no reason to validate people just to lighten your workload. It is dangerous and NOT part of the criteria.
And to suggest that people try to fail trainees to bolster their egos is outrageous. Sure, there may be one or two people like that in NATS, but the way the system is set up no one person should now be able to have such a huge influence. Those that used to be like this are either retiring, no longer training, or well known and ignored.
Methods of training vary hugely - some shout, others say nothing, others say too much, but IMHO 99.9% try to help trainees validate and give them as much support as possible.
Perhaps a return to bed is necessary for you, and then try getting up out the right side this time!
With all best wishes to you and to all OJTIs in the world.
Question - How much do OJTIs in other countries get as a percentage on top of their salary per annum?
Now that would be interesting to know!
SS
Either you have a serious chip on your shoulder or you didn't phrase this post particularly well.
IMHO I and all of my fellow mentors train to an exacting standard with parity and fairness. It is a difficult task, especially in the LTMA for example. (Contentious perhaps, but maybe those OJTIs who train in the busiest of environments should receive renumeration commensurate with the larger amount of a/c than those who train in less busy environments...?)
Face it. Some trainees make it, some don't. There is no reason to validate people just to lighten your workload. It is dangerous and NOT part of the criteria.
And to suggest that people try to fail trainees to bolster their egos is outrageous. Sure, there may be one or two people like that in NATS, but the way the system is set up no one person should now be able to have such a huge influence. Those that used to be like this are either retiring, no longer training, or well known and ignored.
Methods of training vary hugely - some shout, others say nothing, others say too much, but IMHO 99.9% try to help trainees validate and give them as much support as possible.
Perhaps a return to bed is necessary for you, and then try getting up out the right side this time!
With all best wishes to you and to all OJTIs in the world.
Question - How much do OJTIs in other countries get as a percentage on top of their salary per annum?
Now that would be interesting to know!
SS
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co-ordination unaffected
I can't believe that the phrasing of your question is entirely how you meant it to come across..... if it is, then it makes me utterly sad to think that people still think like that. I thought it was the old-school train of thought that chopping a trainee was good for the company, and your ego.
Seeing my trainee chopped would NOT be a way of boosting my ego.... in fact I think it would be the most demoralising thing ever, and also a reflection on my skills as an OJTI. Surely, it reflects better on you if your trainee improves steadily throughout their training to reach a standard where you'd be proud to say you'd trained them and would easily work alongside them. Sure, some trainees don't make it, but that's not through a want of trying to guide them and pass along your expertise to enable them to reach validation standard.
All that aside though, I'd like to think that people aren't validated just to ease workload on their colleagues. In fact, if a sub-standard trainee validates, does that not up your workload, as you're continuously monitoring them over your shoulder through fear of what may happen?!
Standard speeds The comment you make about differing remuneration... contentious indeed..... why should we be paid differing rates to train?? we're all undertaking exactly the same responsibility of allowing a trainee to work on our license and monitoring that person until such time as they are capable of undertaking duties on their own. As you say yourself, we all train with the same parity and fairness, shouldn't we then be paid with that same parity and fairness???
I can't believe that the phrasing of your question is entirely how you meant it to come across..... if it is, then it makes me utterly sad to think that people still think like that. I thought it was the old-school train of thought that chopping a trainee was good for the company, and your ego.
Seeing my trainee chopped would NOT be a way of boosting my ego.... in fact I think it would be the most demoralising thing ever, and also a reflection on my skills as an OJTI. Surely, it reflects better on you if your trainee improves steadily throughout their training to reach a standard where you'd be proud to say you'd trained them and would easily work alongside them. Sure, some trainees don't make it, but that's not through a want of trying to guide them and pass along your expertise to enable them to reach validation standard.
All that aside though, I'd like to think that people aren't validated just to ease workload on their colleagues. In fact, if a sub-standard trainee validates, does that not up your workload, as you're continuously monitoring them over your shoulder through fear of what may happen?!
Standard speeds The comment you make about differing remuneration... contentious indeed..... why should we be paid differing rates to train?? we're all undertaking exactly the same responsibility of allowing a trainee to work on our license and monitoring that person until such time as they are capable of undertaking duties on their own. As you say yourself, we all train with the same parity and fairness, shouldn't we then be paid with that same parity and fairness???
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No chip on my shoulder - yet
And it's refreshing to see that the consensus so far seems to have changed from the old guard "I was trained like that, so that's how I'm going to train" mentality. Long may it last.
Didn't really explain myself as to the lightening workload thing, I quite agree that you can't, and shouldn't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Just wondering if the Ego still reigned supreme.
And it's refreshing to see that the consensus so far seems to have changed from the old guard "I was trained like that, so that's how I'm going to train" mentality. Long may it last.
Didn't really explain myself as to the lightening workload thing, I quite agree that you can't, and shouldn't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Just wondering if the Ego still reigned supreme.
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I have been responsible for halting trainees training, and it`s not a pleasant task. OJTI and trainee can of necessity become closely acquainted and when the dreaded moment comes can leave both parties upset. I have also known trainees who were obviously relieved when their training was halted.
It is not something that is done lightly, I have been present at case conferences where much soul searching has gone on and where every avenue is considered.
It is not something that is done lightly, I have been present at case conferences where much soul searching has gone on and where every avenue is considered.
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when a trainee "fails" this is not an ego boost.
quite the opposite.
with any trainee i try to adapt my training technique to the individual trainee and do everything possible to help that person achieve a c of c.
then after gaining this keep an eye on them, during the first few months to make sure that they are ok, make them they feel they can still ask questions and opinions while they gain experience.
if i was into having an ego then it would be when someone has gained a c of c with my help and input
more money for a busier unit - thought that already happened!
prof
quite the opposite.
with any trainee i try to adapt my training technique to the individual trainee and do everything possible to help that person achieve a c of c.
then after gaining this keep an eye on them, during the first few months to make sure that they are ok, make them they feel they can still ask questions and opinions while they gain experience.
if i was into having an ego then it would be when someone has gained a c of c with my help and input
more money for a busier unit - thought that already happened!
prof
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In another thread within atc issues, notes are swapped relating to the fact that we all get busy, when your particular sector/zone gets such that you're maxed out. If you want to make salaries based upon number of movements/pax shifted then fair deal. (not my issue, though...) it would make sense, therefore, that if you wish an unlevel playing field on pay, make OJTI a percentage of basic salary, rather than a fixed sum. This ensures that at the better paid units your percentage pay escalates. Trebles all round!! 
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As a "senior" [aka BOF] ATSA11, I am asked [and required] to train ATSAs at my unit [MAN/EGCC] TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY . In umpteen years, I have never, ever had one failure
.
Every u/t is an individual....and is treated as such ! Anything else would be, a. Unfair and b. Grossly Unprofessional.
As an ATSA, I don't get "OJTI" bonus
but I take pride in what I do
we aim to please, it keeps the claners happy.
p.s. It must do, cos Sue is STAYING
.Every u/t is an individual....and is treated as such ! Anything else would be, a. Unfair and b. Grossly Unprofessional.
As an ATSA, I don't get "OJTI" bonus
but I take pride in what I do we aim to please, it keeps the claners happy.
p.s. It must do, cos Sue is STAYING
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CHIGLET. And so do 99.99999% of ATCOs take a pride in the way that they train and the results that they achieve,but I think it a little naive on your part to compare training ATSAs with ATCOs.
In the main thre are no time constraints in the ATSA training programme which so often put the pressure on ab-initios and the training set up as a whole.
In the main thre are no time constraints in the ATSA training programme which so often put the pressure on ab-initios and the training set up as a whole.
niknak
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Every OJTI knows (or should know) what standard is required to validate at their unit or sector, additionally they also know that the learning process doesn't stop at the validation.
Encourage the trainee to make their own decisions from day one, but make it absolutely clear who is in charge and lay down the parameters beforehand.
Lots of encouragement and constructive critisism go a long way in building confidence, equally, the ability to put an over confident trainee in their place quitely and firmly is a pre - requisite of the job.
Shouting and sarcasm doesn't work.
As for chopping a trainee - sometimes it is necessary for the good of the student and the unit, it doesn't always mean they'll never work in atc again, just that they aren't suitable for that unit or sector.
Extra pay If only...............
Encourage the trainee to make their own decisions from day one, but make it absolutely clear who is in charge and lay down the parameters beforehand.
Lots of encouragement and constructive critisism go a long way in building confidence, equally, the ability to put an over confident trainee in their place quitely and firmly is a pre - requisite of the job.
Shouting and sarcasm doesn't work.
As for chopping a trainee - sometimes it is necessary for the good of the student and the unit, it doesn't always mean they'll never work in atc again, just that they aren't suitable for that unit or sector.
Extra pay
If only...............
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Good subject this one! Question first. How many OJTI's of have you seen training people that shouldn't be OJTI's in the first place? I have seen too many.
A good OJTI, in my opinion is almost part psycologist. The first thing that needs assessing is what type of trainee they are to begin with. An OJTI can't just train trainee 'A' the same way as trainee 'B'.
As always, a good OJTI has to be good enough to allow a situation to flow/deteriorate to expose the learning points without compromise to safety or expedition of traffic. The envirnment also needs to be geared to accept what is going on. By that I mean some people don't like to give the latitude required in the training environment. Some centres don't have appropriate sim training which is a real pain. But those that do are so much further ahead. I have never failed in getting a trainee up to speed except one. I did not recommend this person but it was taken out of my hands by management and they had them rated about two weeks later after training with another OJTI - the type that shouldn't be one. 2 months later the newly rated person had a major incident and is no longer a controller. So there you go.
A good OJTI, in my opinion is almost part psycologist. The first thing that needs assessing is what type of trainee they are to begin with. An OJTI can't just train trainee 'A' the same way as trainee 'B'.
As always, a good OJTI has to be good enough to allow a situation to flow/deteriorate to expose the learning points without compromise to safety or expedition of traffic. The envirnment also needs to be geared to accept what is going on. By that I mean some people don't like to give the latitude required in the training environment. Some centres don't have appropriate sim training which is a real pain. But those that do are so much further ahead. I have never failed in getting a trainee up to speed except one. I did not recommend this person but it was taken out of my hands by management and they had them rated about two weeks later after training with another OJTI - the type that shouldn't be one. 2 months later the newly rated person had a major incident and is no longer a controller. So there you go.
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I am not comparing my OJTI experieces to an ATCOs. I was only adding to the discussion. BUT , once upon a time.. boring innit, we ATCAs [as was] used to train ATCO cadets on the wings and tower ATCA duties as a "grounding" for their future careers. Most of them thought that it was a [reasonably] good idea
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
I am not comparing my OJTI experieces to an ATCOs. I was only adding to the discussion. BUT , once upon a time.. boring innit, we ATCAs [as was] used to train ATCO cadets on the wings and tower ATCA duties as a "grounding" for their future careers. Most of them thought that it was a [reasonably] good idea
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Last edited by chiglet; 1st Jul 2002 at 19:36.
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Personally, I came into this job in order to work the traffic myself, not spend up to 50% of my time watching someone else excersise the privilages of my licence. That said, I am fully aware of the need to train and therefore willingly undertake an often difficult task.
I have NEVER felt boosted when a trainee has been 'chopped'. We will have spent many hours training this person (one student did over 500 hours before the towel was thrown in) and it just feels like a waste.
I can admit to feeling relieved when someone is chopped who just didn't have what it takes and was repeatedly and unpredictably dangerous, but it is also a great thrill to see an ab-initio trainee validate. I'm young enough to remember what that feels like and I also remember the tremendously encourageing and helpful OJTI's who got me there.
I also remember the others!!
I have NEVER felt boosted when a trainee has been 'chopped'. We will have spent many hours training this person (one student did over 500 hours before the towel was thrown in) and it just feels like a waste.
I can admit to feeling relieved when someone is chopped who just didn't have what it takes and was repeatedly and unpredictably dangerous, but it is also a great thrill to see an ab-initio trainee validate. I'm young enough to remember what that feels like and I also remember the tremendously encourageing and helpful OJTI's who got me there.
I also remember the others!!
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Re: OJTI's - How do YOU train?
Being the Union Representative who has represented trainees through the Training Board Review Process after failing training, and as an Instructor I've provided training to many trainees (developmentals). Often I'm standing in for when the primary or secondary instructors are on leave or tired of training and need a break, so I'm not usually familiar with most trainees abilities.
Normally I do a pre-brief and discuss how we are going to work together, I establish a few guidlines that the trainee can not violate (no ties to the airports, and POSITIVE seperation, etc). I also explain that I realize that when most trainees fall too far behind they quit learning, so I'll only intervene if I feel that they are falling behind or safety becomes an issue, but I expect them to be able to jump right back in and take back over.
With some trainees (usually ones close to being certified) I let them dig themselves into a hole (get behind) and I'll observe how they dig themselves back out, I'll encourage them, make minor suggestions, but the goal is for them to demonstrate that they have the ability to catch back up or hang in there and safely work the traffic, plus I'm watching to see if they know when to ask for help (ask that another sector be opened, ask for a coordinator, etc.)
I fully agree that not all good controllers make good instructors. But to just certify someone to relieve staffing problems is a HUGE mistake. I've seen management certify someone who wasn't ready, and watching them work traffic isn't a pretty sight.
Mike
Normally I do a pre-brief and discuss how we are going to work together, I establish a few guidlines that the trainee can not violate (no ties to the airports, and POSITIVE seperation, etc). I also explain that I realize that when most trainees fall too far behind they quit learning, so I'll only intervene if I feel that they are falling behind or safety becomes an issue, but I expect them to be able to jump right back in and take back over.
With some trainees (usually ones close to being certified) I let them dig themselves into a hole (get behind) and I'll observe how they dig themselves back out, I'll encourage them, make minor suggestions, but the goal is for them to demonstrate that they have the ability to catch back up or hang in there and safely work the traffic, plus I'm watching to see if they know when to ask for help (ask that another sector be opened, ask for a coordinator, etc.)
I fully agree that not all good controllers make good instructors. But to just certify someone to relieve staffing problems is a HUGE mistake. I've seen management certify someone who wasn't ready, and watching them work traffic isn't a pretty sight.
Mike
Last edited by FWA NATCA; 2nd Jul 2002 at 15:12.
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"And to suggest that people try to fail trainees to bolster their egos is outrageous. "
Explain certain watches in London not passing ANY trainee in 4 years if you don't mind...and then having the nerve to complain about staffing. Trainees on "certain" watches are treated like dirt...
Of course an awful lot of instructors are truely professional and all appreciate their effort.
Explain certain watches in London not passing ANY trainee in 4 years if you don't mind...and then having the nerve to complain about staffing. Trainees on "certain" watches are treated like dirt...
Of course an awful lot of instructors are truely professional and all appreciate their effort.
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followme, if by London you mean TC, there isn't a single watch which hasn't had a validation for 4 years. Do you mean a specific discipline, ie EGLL APC, or TMA? Even then I would be astonished if this were true.
Bear in mind that it's down to a team of OJTI's and watch training and unit management to make the decision to end someone's training and therefore, hopefully, a bigoted opinion would contradict the majority. I've heard some very petty and unfair early judgements being pontificated about trainees but against the reasonable majority they have little weight.
It isn't easy to end someones training. In this day and age of industrial tribunals there has to be a cast iron case and this can mean training continuing for quite a while after it has become clear that the end is nigh. While this is frustrating for the instructor, it does give the student every possible chance to meet the required standard. Ego doesn't come into it.
Bear in mind that it's down to a team of OJTI's and watch training and unit management to make the decision to end someone's training and therefore, hopefully, a bigoted opinion would contradict the majority. I've heard some very petty and unfair early judgements being pontificated about trainees but against the reasonable majority they have little weight.
It isn't easy to end someones training. In this day and age of industrial tribunals there has to be a cast iron case and this can mean training continuing for quite a while after it has become clear that the end is nigh. While this is frustrating for the instructor, it does give the student every possible chance to meet the required standard. Ego doesn't come into it.
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OJTI's
Greetings fellow green screen users
Some interesting comments ref. your training of FNG's in the UK, remarkably similar to us here in sunny South Africa.
We as OJTI's make sure that the trainees know exactly what is expected from them before they start their training(norm?), they go through four or five different OJTI's during their training, and if they don't make it- tough!! If a problem(s) is identified during their training, we will concentrate on that problem and try resolve it, etc, etc.
No one OJTI is responsible for washing a trainee, consensus has to be reached amongst the resonsible OJTI's, and that after all other avenues have been exhausted. Same Same as you lads?
One thing we as OJTI's have to ask ourselves before sending someone solo is- would you trust that person to be sitting next to you on position? Remember. that person is able to break your career into little pieces with one bad decision. Do you trust the person sitting next to you??
As regards the payment of OJTI's- in SA on JHB radar, at the current exchange rate- 3 pounds p/h before tax. Not enough!!!
Anyone interested?? Julle bliksems!
Some interesting comments ref. your training of FNG's in the UK, remarkably similar to us here in sunny South Africa.
We as OJTI's make sure that the trainees know exactly what is expected from them before they start their training(norm?), they go through four or five different OJTI's during their training, and if they don't make it- tough!! If a problem(s) is identified during their training, we will concentrate on that problem and try resolve it, etc, etc.
No one OJTI is responsible for washing a trainee, consensus has to be reached amongst the resonsible OJTI's, and that after all other avenues have been exhausted. Same Same as you lads?
One thing we as OJTI's have to ask ourselves before sending someone solo is- would you trust that person to be sitting next to you on position? Remember. that person is able to break your career into little pieces with one bad decision. Do you trust the person sitting next to you??
As regards the payment of OJTI's- in SA on JHB radar, at the current exchange rate- 3 pounds p/h before tax. Not enough!!!
Anyone interested?? Julle bliksems!
