BA pilot at it again at Dublin
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
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From: LHR/EGLL
I've never admitted to not having listened when I have missed a call on a mandatory frequency.
I've certainly never filed a voyage report on the basis of not having listened to a call I did not hear.
How about you, Gonzo?
Much like, one might think, a ground crew telling flight crew that they were stopping the pushback because of traffic going behind. That might take priority over listening to Ground.
And what's your definition of a 'mandatory frequency'?
Last edited by Gonzo; 21st June 2016 at 12:43.
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 487
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From: North Up
I have frequently ignored calls from aircraft (and co-ordination attempts from other ATCOs) intentionally because I was dealing with something else that, at that time, was a priority.
This erse (he wasn't Irish but I need to get around the autocensor) actually admitted that he wasn't even listening when he subsequently made an arse (dunno how I got away with that one!) of himself by bitching that he wasn't told.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,687
Likes: 2,030
From: Reading, UK
Sorry Dave but you keep saying that and I disagree with you. I see it exactly as presented in Martin 123's post. Circumstances contributed more than the actual clearances given. One thing is for sure, the BA was not cleared to push into the Stobart. The BA was cleared to push BEFORE the Stobart. When Stobart got their push clearance they were given traffic information regarding the BA. What happened in actual fact is that BA pushed late and by this time Stobart had already started their push.
So in the absence (so far) of any recording of the controller instructing the BA to stop, or at least advising him of the conflict at the time she cleared the Stobart to push, I stand by my view.
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 487
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From: North Up
Ah, so it's more the fact they said that they were talking to the ground crew rather than the fact they were?
what's your definition of a 'mandatory frequency'?
Joined: Jun 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 1,527
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From: Róisín Dubh
It's stuff like this that makes me wish we had the same laws against putting ATC recordings on facetube and it's ilk that they have in the UK.
This is a partial recording, and even if it wasn't, we all have off days. I could make a mare of something and go home to find it all over the internet. Imagine dealing with that? Your kids getting stick in school because "your mummy/daddy nearly directed/flew an airplane into another airplane"
Bull!!!!!
This is a partial recording, and even if it wasn't, we all have off days. I could make a mare of something and go home to find it all over the internet. Imagine dealing with that? Your kids getting stick in school because "your mummy/daddy nearly directed/flew an airplane into another airplane"
Bull!!!!!
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
Una,
Doesn't stop them doing so though. However, it might stop news outlets embedding/playing the clips.
I agree, it would also stop the embarrassing speculation and judgement we can see in this thread.
Let's be honest, nobody has the full picture here. To have that right n ow you'd need to have been in the VCR, and in the cockpit.
Nobody was, therefore reports should be filed so it can be investigated.
It's not rocket science.
Doesn't stop them doing so though. However, it might stop news outlets embedding/playing the clips.
I agree, it would also stop the embarrassing speculation and judgement we can see in this thread.
Let's be honest, nobody has the full picture here. To have that right n ow you'd need to have been in the VCR, and in the cockpit.
Nobody was, therefore reports should be filed so it can be investigated.
It's not rocket science.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,135
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From: Camp X-Ray
Judging by the heavily edited version on youtube and the slightly longer version on the LiveATC.net archive there doesn't appear to have been any attempt by the controller to call the Speedbird before the push was stopped by the ground crew. Perhaps the BA crew should have been more honest and said "We weren't listening because we were too busy talking to the ground crew dealing with the screw up".
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,475
Likes: 704
From: UK
Originally Posted by T250
'I wasn't listening out because we were talking to the ground crew.'
Doesn't take 2 pilots to do that.
Doesn't take 2 pilots to do that.
Actually depending on the circumstances, it could well require two pilots talking to the ground crew.
A new pilot in their early line training, operating the sector as PF, (meaning they're the one talking to ground, whilst PNF talks to ATC), may have never been to Dublin before so unfamiliar with the airfield, unfamiliar with what was going on around them, confused by another aircraft seemingly in conflict and the ground crew stopping the push when they weren't expecting it.
Training captain would be very wise to take up the communication with pushback crew, thus leaving ATC ground un-responded to.
I'm not saying that was the case here, but it is easily a possibility, and BA have been recruiting like mad, they have their FPP scheme with pilots who are fresh out of CPL training, plus a load of direct-entry type-rated pilots onto short haul with maybe not much more than 500 hours. Lots of training going all the time there.
Thing is, unless you're actually on a runway at the time, if you're on the ground and not moving, then listening to ATC and replying promptly are usually not (as) critical, when compared to other things (such as talking to the ground crew who just stopped your pushback before an accident occurred).
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 729
Likes: 1
From: Zulu Time Zone
Just had a listen to the archive and I have come down on the side of the controller.
I have no axe to grind with BA, I think their crews are generally excellent but this wasn't their finest moment.
BA got their approval to push conditional on the ryanair passing clear.
2 minutes later the ATR got their approval to push "after the ryanair was on stand" and were cautioned that BA was also pushing back
About 1.5 minutes later there was a clipped tx from ATC advising of "an atr pushing back behind you to point B". That was most likely for BA but the callsign was clipped and nobody responded.
About 30 secs later the BA advised that the ground crew had stopped the push.
It took BA the best part of 4 mins to get moving. That was the problem. The ryanair they should have pushed behind was long gone and had been on the stand long enough for the ATR to push back and move behind the BA. The clipped warning call from ATC probably came about the same time that the BA started to move.2 minutes later the ATR got their approval to push "after the ryanair was on stand" and were cautioned that BA was also pushing back
About 1.5 minutes later there was a clipped tx from ATC advising of "an atr pushing back behind you to point B". That was most likely for BA but the callsign was clipped and nobody responded.
About 30 secs later the BA advised that the ground crew had stopped the push.
I have no axe to grind with BA, I think their crews are generally excellent but this wasn't their finest moment.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 1,691
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From: UK
I'm not sure that's a valid conclusion based on the layout of Dublin. The BA is on stand 20something, the ATR is on 125 and I think the Ryanair is going to 200. That means the Ryanair is only going to pass behind the BA about 10 seconds before he passes behind the ATR. When the ATR gets his conditional push clearance he is still waiting for the Ryanair to pass behind. It's entirely plausible that the BA is still then waiting for the Ryanair to pass behind. There's only two minutes between the ATR getting his push clearance and the BA stopping. Add a minute for the Ryanair to pass behind the BA and you can easily get two aircraft pushing within the space of a minute, with a clear statement from the controller that the ATR was supposed to give way to the BA in the subsequent dialogue.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 75
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From: all over the place
I'm not sure that's a valid conclusion based on the layout of Dublin. The BA is on stand 20something, the ATR is on 125 and I think the Ryanair is going to 200. That means the Ryanair is only going to pass behind the BA about 10 seconds before he passes behind the ATR. When the ATR gets his conditional push clearance he is still waiting for the Ryanair to pass behind. It's entirely plausible that the BA is still then waiting for the Ryanair to pass behind. There's only two minutes between the ATR getting his push clearance and the BA stopping. Add a minute for the Ryanair to pass behind the BA and you can easily get two aircraft pushing within the space of a minute, with a clear statement from the controller that the ATR was supposed to give way to the BA in the subsequent dialogue.
If the BAW is told the traffic is passing behind right to left and the Stobart is told in the amended conditional clearance( which they seem to have ignored) that the BAW is to their left then the RYR passes behind the Stobart first and the BAW has to wait.....or have I heard that incorrectly?
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 1,691
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From: UK
The BA would have been facing south and the Stobart facing north. Stand 125 is east of the BA and the inbound Ryanairs stand is south east of 125. So the inbound Ryanair would have passed behind the BA from their right shoulder to their left, then behind the Stobart from their left shoulder to their right. The BA would always have been on the left of the Stobart if the stands are correct.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 729
Likes: 1
From: Zulu Time Zone
Carnage Matey!
The ATR was not on stand 125. That is where the ryanair was going. The ATR approval was "ryanair 737 to park on stand 125 behind you. When they're on stand push and start approved".
alwaysmovin:
You heard correctly. Worth noting that the Stobart ATR was not to push back until the ryanair was on stand, so had the BA been ready (as they are meant to be before requesting push) they should have been pushing back before the ATR and the ATR would not have been able to move until BA taxied from C. I believe that is what the controller had in mind.
I'm not sure that's a valid conclusion based on the layout of Dublin. The BA is on stand 20something, the ATR is on 125...I think the Ryanair is going to 200
alwaysmovin:
If the BAW is told the traffic is passing behind right to left and the Stobart is told in the amended conditional clearance( which they seem to have ignored) that the BAW is to their left then the RYR passes behind the Stobart first and the BAW has to wait.....or have I heard that incorrectly?
Last edited by oggers; 22nd June 2016 at 09:17.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 75
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From: all over the place
I haven't heard the entire recording so my thoughts are just on the edited version......
Apparently it doesn't matter what actually happened anyway because in the Irish online world a decision has been made .... she is a hero and he is the villain....Its like a witch hunt . The lack of professionalism by the other pilots adds to an already tense/ stressful situation imho and I'm just glad nothing happened . I didn't actually find him too arrogant at all ( I'm am ATCO) , I just thought he sounded exasperated with the situation and I felt that she was the one who had accusatory tone to her voice . First blaming the other pilot and then blaming him. If he did take too long to push back then she was right to be annoyed however none of us will know until that is clarified in a report and in the meantime a guy is being vilified on social media without facts.
Apparently it doesn't matter what actually happened anyway because in the Irish online world a decision has been made .... she is a hero and he is the villain....Its like a witch hunt . The lack of professionalism by the other pilots adds to an already tense/ stressful situation imho and I'm just glad nothing happened . I didn't actually find him too arrogant at all ( I'm am ATCO) , I just thought he sounded exasperated with the situation and I felt that she was the one who had accusatory tone to her voice . First blaming the other pilot and then blaming him. If he did take too long to push back then she was right to be annoyed however none of us will know until that is clarified in a report and in the meantime a guy is being vilified on social media without facts.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: all over the place
Just had a listen to the archive and I have come down on the side of the controller.
I have no axe to grind with BA, I think their crews are generally excellent but this wasn't their finest moment.
BA got their approval to push conditional on the ryanair passing clear.
2 minutes later the ATR got their approval to push "after the ryanair was on stand" and were cautioned that BA was also pushing back
About 1.5 minutes later there was a clipped tx from ATC advising of "an atr pushing back behind you to point B". That was most likely for BA but the callsign was clipped and nobody responded.
About 30 secs later the BA advised that the ground crew had stopped the push.
It took BA the best part of 4 mins to get moving. That was the problem. The ryanair they should have pushed behind was long gone and had been on the stand long enough for the ATR to push back and move behind the BA. The clipped warning call from ATC probably came about the same time that the BA started to move.2 minutes later the ATR got their approval to push "after the ryanair was on stand" and were cautioned that BA was also pushing back
About 1.5 minutes later there was a clipped tx from ATC advising of "an atr pushing back behind you to point B". That was most likely for BA but the callsign was clipped and nobody responded.
About 30 secs later the BA advised that the ground crew had stopped the push.
I have no axe to grind with BA, I think their crews are generally excellent but this wasn't their finest moment.
Also on another point in this recording the Stobart never seemed to acknowledge the later conditional clearance issued by the controller re the BA so maybe they didn't actually hear it....
Last edited by alwaysmovin; 22nd June 2016 at 15:33.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 624
Likes: 17
From: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Am I really missing something in this Kangaroo court? We don't have the full tape recording, or the reports from the individuals concerned, therefore any total condemnation of either party seems very premature and excessive. As for the comments from the other pilots I really give up.