Gatwick spacing
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Really? Do we now put flow on when a newly valid ATCO is plugged in? Why are we expecting newly valid KK controllers to struggle with doing 55ph SRO?
Just wondering.
Just wondering.
Join Date: Jan 2004
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The 55 runway movements per hour will likely have an average delay factor agreed by all involved and applied by the schedulers. For example at peak times when runway demand is highest, departing aircraft could expect an average delay at the holding point of say 10 or 15 minutes. Same may apply for arrivals depending on where the demand is. It's physically not possible to sustain 55 scheduled movements per hour on a mixed mode runway for several consecutive hours. There has to be a "firebreak" after these peak hours where the scheduled number per hour is reduced so any delays built up during the 55/hour peak can be dissipated. This is common practice in airport scheduling.
Last summer Gatwick scheduled 55/hour for 3 hours of the day only with two consecutive hours at 55 movements but the two consecutive were late afternoon period when there are very few "heavy" aircraft types involved which therefore does not require increased vortex spacing and minimises runway occupancy times which helps towards achieving the 55 movements without much delay, subject to good weather of course. I'd be surprised if the scheduled declared runway capacity for summer 2016 was increased as doing so may increase any delays that last summer's declared capacity schedule created.
Last summer Gatwick scheduled 55/hour for 3 hours of the day only with two consecutive hours at 55 movements but the two consecutive were late afternoon period when there are very few "heavy" aircraft types involved which therefore does not require increased vortex spacing and minimises runway occupancy times which helps towards achieving the 55 movements without much delay, subject to good weather of course. I'd be surprised if the scheduled declared runway capacity for summer 2016 was increased as doing so may increase any delays that last summer's declared capacity schedule created.
Gonzo
I do not expect newly validated controllers "to struggle". I'm sure that they will do very well, & improve as they go along (& soon be as good as the experienced 'KK ATCOS). But, it's only natural to "feel your way" for a while as you build up your performance & confidence. Gatwick is a demanding job & requires peak performance to ensure that the standards are maintained - especially from newly validated ATCOS. Some will be "better" than others (especially those with similar experience elsewhere) of course, but the nature of the task at Gatwick is such that I would expect new recruits to have to work their way into it; wouldn't you ?
I do not expect newly validated controllers "to struggle". I'm sure that they will do very well, & improve as they go along (& soon be as good as the experienced 'KK ATCOS). But, it's only natural to "feel your way" for a while as you build up your performance & confidence. Gatwick is a demanding job & requires peak performance to ensure that the standards are maintained - especially from newly validated ATCOS. Some will be "better" than others (especially those with similar experience elsewhere) of course, but the nature of the task at Gatwick is such that I would expect new recruits to have to work their way into it; wouldn't you ?
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kcockayne
No. They must be able to deal with everything that standard traffic throws at them including the volume that Gatwick generates. Their watch members will keep half an eye on them especially if something unusual happens and will always offer some advice, and indeed take some back as well as new people often have a different way of doing stuff. But feeling their way in? No, that's what the training does.
No. They must be able to deal with everything that standard traffic throws at them including the volume that Gatwick generates. Their watch members will keep half an eye on them especially if something unusual happens and will always offer some advice, and indeed take some back as well as new people often have a different way of doing stuff. But feeling their way in? No, that's what the training does.
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"especially those with similar experience elsewhere" Some of the profiles of new hires might surprise. The phrase in quotes just does not apply. Therefore longer learning curve.......
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I'd be surprised if the scheduled declared runway capacity for summer 2016 was increased as doing so may increase any delays that last summer's declared capacity schedule created.
There are literally no firebreaks in the schedule anymore and this may be a big issue this summer when trying to balance demand!
As for the new controllers they will be trained to the same high standard that was expected of NATS controllers because essentially they are trained by NATS controllers.
But they will have to hit the ground running if they validate during the summer.
For what it's worth it will be a challenge for everyone at Gatwick this summer.
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If they're scheduling 55 per hour for more than twice as long every day then the summer is going to suck for the AC sectors as well as TC.
I'm assuming it's been pointed out you can't fit 2lbs of s**t into a 1lb bag
I'm assuming it's been pointed out you can't fit 2lbs of s**t into a 1lb bag
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I doubt there are many controllers around with experience of high intensity single runway operations similar to Gatwick. As with any newly qualified person they will need some consolidation time.
GIP can live in fantasy land with their computer models and schedule as many movements as they like. It remains to be seen if this is achievable! Hopefully this summer the TC South sectors will not end up as a capacity buffer/shock absorber for over ambitious airport scheduling.
GIP can live in fantasy land with their computer models and schedule as many movements as they like. It remains to be seen if this is achievable! Hopefully this summer the TC South sectors will not end up as a capacity buffer/shock absorber for over ambitious airport scheduling.
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GIP do live in a fantasy land. There has been talk of 70 an hour using TBS!!! I kid you not.
If the slots are all filled, with minimum staff at TC, LAMP airspace, a few newly valid tower controllers, the summer could be fairly "tasty".
If the slots are all filled, with minimum staff at TC, LAMP airspace, a few newly valid tower controllers, the summer could be fairly "tasty".
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GIP do live in a fantasy land. There has been talk of 70 an hour using TBS!!! I kid you not.
If the slots are all filled, with minimum staff at TC, LAMP airspace, a few newly valid tower controllers, the summer could be fairly "tasty".
If the slots are all filled, with minimum staff at TC, LAMP airspace, a few newly valid tower controllers, the summer could be fairly "tasty".
Seems Willy Wonka/W***er is going to be running the show this summer, plus all his umpa lumpas
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As EOK mentions, the type mix may well be the limiting factor. Unless they kick out the Emirates 380, or the older 75s and the like which aren't RNAV compliant, or pray for permanent lovely weather, even 55 won't work...
Still, I'm sure 'the powers that be' have it all in hand.
Still, I'm sure 'the powers that be' have it all in hand.
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GAL/GIP just don't get the difference between a model and the real world. They always look at what new things they can do before fixing the current issues.
They simulate higher runway capacity and think by using TBS and any other 'new' technology it can be achieved in the real operation. What they don't get is that we already do TBS at Gatwick it's what the controllers in the tower and for that matter at TC are paid to do.
Tower use their experience and judgement to pick a gap size based on weather conditions and any limiting factors such as WIP then we ask our colleagues at TC to make it happen.
Most of the time everyone is really good at this but there are too many variables that affect the outcome. To list just a few:
Controller variability - all controllers are different and can be different from day to day which can effect how tight you can safely push it.
Aircrew and aircraft variability - similar to above and especially having heard rumours of the amount of low hours crew the major carrier at Gatwick has! Also different operators can fly similar aircraft quite differently which makes it harder for radar.
Weather variability - the best weather for high runway ops is a steady moderate wind down the runway with good vis throughout the day.
The list could go on but we would be here all year. The bottom line is Gatwick needs to run like a well oiled machine from start to finish to make the level of traffic we had last year work let alone this year and all to often it doesn't!
There are so many things that Gatwick (all the airport stakeholders) need to improve to make the current operation sustainable before we even consider any more than 55 an hour!
They simulate higher runway capacity and think by using TBS and any other 'new' technology it can be achieved in the real operation. What they don't get is that we already do TBS at Gatwick it's what the controllers in the tower and for that matter at TC are paid to do.
Tower use their experience and judgement to pick a gap size based on weather conditions and any limiting factors such as WIP then we ask our colleagues at TC to make it happen.
Most of the time everyone is really good at this but there are too many variables that affect the outcome. To list just a few:
Controller variability - all controllers are different and can be different from day to day which can effect how tight you can safely push it.
Aircrew and aircraft variability - similar to above and especially having heard rumours of the amount of low hours crew the major carrier at Gatwick has! Also different operators can fly similar aircraft quite differently which makes it harder for radar.
Weather variability - the best weather for high runway ops is a steady moderate wind down the runway with good vis throughout the day.
The list could go on but we would be here all year. The bottom line is Gatwick needs to run like a well oiled machine from start to finish to make the level of traffic we had last year work let alone this year and all to often it doesn't!
There are so many things that Gatwick (all the airport stakeholders) need to improve to make the current operation sustainable before we even consider any more than 55 an hour!
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I wonder what buffer has been built in to the recruitment or are they naively thinking that every recruit will validate, that is more of an issue. What happens if none of them make it?
You cannot have a "bedding in" period either, once they are valid they should be able to cope with any level of traffic, that is why training takes so long where ever you are stationed.
You cannot have a "bedding in" period either, once they are valid they should be able to cope with any level of traffic, that is why training takes so long where ever you are stationed.
I disagree. It is my experience that pretty much every ATCO gets better with practice. That does NOT mean that they are performing badly, or unacceptably, for a few months, or whatever, after validation ; which is the required standard for them. Just that after qualification practice makes perfect !
Out of interest, would anybody like to guesstimate what will the average airborne holding delay be into Gatwick this summer? Will we see speed reductions over France to regulate the flow?
I must practice saying "Minimum fuel" I fear.
I must practice saying "Minimum fuel" I fear.
Last edited by tubby linton; 28th Feb 2016 at 14:01.