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-   -   Gatwick spacing (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/575160-gatwick-spacing.html)

stonethrower 23rd Feb 2016 06:47

Gatwick spacing
 
Can someone explain to me how Gatwock achieves such a high runway rate per hour on one runway? Is it a one in one out system with standardized arrival gap spacing? I'm doing some research and any assistance and or advice on similar single runway airports would be warmly welcomed.
Regards

kcockayne 23rd Feb 2016 07:43

I would assume that the Radar Controller, at Swanwick, separates approaching traffic with an agreed spacing (agreed with the Gatwick TWR Controller) designed to accommodate the requirement to fit departing a/c into the runway usage. This spacing would be based on a "standard gap" & be subject to alteration at the request of Gatwick TWR when necessary (due to the demand of heavier levels of departing traffic). Whether there is anything more intricate than that involved, I don't know.

kcockayne 23rd Feb 2016 07:45

I should add , the obvious comment, that it is a VERY slick operation ! Well done everyone concerned.

chevvron 23rd Feb 2016 11:08

The NATS controllers at Gatwick have 'honed' things down finely, I have been at 4 miles and they have launched 2 departures before we were cleared to land.
Whether the new ANSP will be as good remains to be seen although I believe some NATS controllers will be staying on.

T250 23rd Feb 2016 11:31


Whether the new ANSP will be as good remains to be seen although I believe some NATS controllers will be staying on.
What a peculiar comment to make.

Considering that the approach radar services will continue to be provided by NATS from Swanwick, these should remain the same.

Only thing changing is half a dozen ATCOs in the VCR, as most NATS controllers are in fact staying on. Where else do they have to go :hmm::p

Nitty Gritty 24th Feb 2016 09:51

Beyond the reasons stated previously, APP arrival separation and TWR dexterity, I suppose two other key elements are the design of procedures that contribute to reduce the Runway Occupancy Time and the rate of pilot compliance with these procedures.

You can find these local regulations at EGKK´s AIP [AD 2-EGKK-1: 2.20 6-Use of Runways h)].

M609 24th Feb 2016 12:58

Does Gatwick require to have full RWY length separation between departing and arriving aircraft?

kcockayne 24th Feb 2016 13:08

I should not think so. If you had to wait until you had the full length of the runway available for landing traffic (behind a departing) that would negate the whole point of running things as tight as possible.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR 24th Feb 2016 14:19

<<Does Gatwick require to have full RWY length separation between departing and arriving aircraft?>>

Does anywhere?

M609 24th Feb 2016 19:44

Yes, that is ICAO standard (PANS-ATM 7.10.1, as I think you know ;) ) Some regulators are scared of the provisions in 7.11 for some reason......

Ratatat 24th Feb 2016 19:52


Originally Posted by M609 (Post 9280461)
Does Gatwick require to have full RWY length separation between departing and arriving aircraft?

Arriving aircraft are not to have crossed the start of the runway until departure is airborne.
Or
When using "after the departing, cleared to land" the departure must be 2000m down the runway and airborne, or, 2500m if still on the ground, before arrival crosses the threshold.

Ratatat 24th Feb 2016 20:02


Originally Posted by T250 (Post 9279264)
What a peculiar comment to make.

Considering that the approach radar services will continue to be provided by NATS from Swanwick, these should remain the same.

Only thing changing is half a dozen ATCOs in the VCR, as most NATS controllers are in fact staying on. Where else do they have to go :hmm::p

From memory 11 controllers moving onto various NATS units or other business areas. These are staying on as secondees whilst ANS recruits are trained up to replace them. 4 retiring and staying as secondees until retirement.
Service from the Tower atcos will continue as it is today. New recruits being trained by current staff so no reason to think it won't stay the same.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR 24th Feb 2016 21:36

It will be interesting... you can't train a controller to the exacting standards required at Gatwick in a short time. It's a highly skilled job.

obwan 24th Feb 2016 21:39

Arriving aircraft are not to have crossed the start of the runway until departure is airborne.

I'm glad I've retired:

chevvron 25th Feb 2016 10:49


Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR (Post 9281003)
It will be interesting... you can't train a controller to the exacting standards required at Gatwick in a short time. It's a highly skilled job.

I agree, it would take a long time to acquire the necessary skill and experience which is needed at Gatwick.

kcockayne 25th Feb 2016 13:29

HD & Chevvron are, of course, correct. At such a busy station new controllers are going to take time to "find their feet" & to build up the confidence necessary to be able to continue the "slick operation" which currently pertains. It won't happen overnight, so be prepared for some lapses in the present tight spacing & expedition.

Nimmer 25th Feb 2016 15:30

The Gatwick planned summer movement rate (8 hours of 55 movements), plus the "normal 40 hours" doesn't allow for lapses in spacing!!,

kcockayne 25th Feb 2016 16:22

Maybe not, but it's not something that you can just step in & do without a lot of training & experience. I'm sure that the experienced mentors will be keeping the new ATCOS on their toes, but I wouldn't expect them to display the same level of operational performance, on their own, straight away.

Nimmer 25th Feb 2016 18:06

Yep I agree, unfortunately GIP don't always understand that.

jmmoric 25th Feb 2016 18:09

55 movements per hour? Now even I'm really impressed.... Considering it takes some 40+ seconds to be airbourne from throttling up..

I guess it goes ok with tower separation, though a bit tight, but what is the rate in poor weather then?


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