Trainee Trauma
Join Date: Jul 2001
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This begs the question, "why have a box for training.?" We have our override plug hardwired into the console... You plug into the monitor jack and you are not hot when the trainee is talking, however if they mess up, you key up and they go dead and you chat away... Sometimes it would be nice to have it wired to a hot wire in the seat too <BEG>....
regards
regards
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Scott, it's not a separate box, just an override socket, the mentor presses the transmit switch and it overrides the trainee (at least that's what we have at EGPF).
However, technology as it is, no matter how many test transmissions are made, it still fails.
i much preferred the old flick the switch system, that one never failed me.
However, technology as it is, no matter how many test transmissions are made, it still fails.
i much preferred the old flick the switch system, that one never failed me.
Thread Starter
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Yes but you can't just ''flick the switch'' at swanwick because thanks to the marvellous step forward in ergonomic design the ''switch'' is located between the 2 sockets with headsets plugged in, both of which are underneath a metal flap, which you can't lift without moving the strip board because the strip board rests on top of it!!! How anyone (Management I mean) can possibly think that that is a safe way to train (presuming you've read the letter lying in the ops room) is totally beyond me.
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Take3 Call5, you cannot be serious.
"The mentor box 'problem' only became fully known when actual mentors started to use them for real."
Well no comment required.
"The 'fault' which caused the malfunction of the mentor box in the recent airprox was a lose wire, as happens often with headsets etc. given lots of use. "
So headsets and mentor boxes only work if we don`t use them....fantastic.
"However it has given us (support staff) the ammunition to fire off an urgent Investment Proposal (NATS management speak for getting them to spend some money) to completely re-design and purchase replacement mentor boxes soonest. "
Perish the thought that the operational staff would have any say in the matter.
"BTW for those who find they don't like the background/foreground radar picture it is very simple to change the MMI, making background = foreground, so you can see EVERYTHING on your screen."
No you don`t say, so one of the fundemental principles of the NERC operation can be overided by ignoring it!!!
I refer you to eye in the sky`s post.
"The mentor box 'problem' only became fully known when actual mentors started to use them for real."
Well no comment required.
"The 'fault' which caused the malfunction of the mentor box in the recent airprox was a lose wire, as happens often with headsets etc. given lots of use. "
So headsets and mentor boxes only work if we don`t use them....fantastic.
"However it has given us (support staff) the ammunition to fire off an urgent Investment Proposal (NATS management speak for getting them to spend some money) to completely re-design and purchase replacement mentor boxes soonest. "
Perish the thought that the operational staff would have any say in the matter.
"BTW for those who find they don't like the background/foreground radar picture it is very simple to change the MMI, making background = foreground, so you can see EVERYTHING on your screen."
No you don`t say, so one of the fundemental principles of the NERC operation can be overided by ignoring it!!!
I refer you to eye in the sky`s post.
Beady Eye
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Big Nose1:
Don't understand your response.
1. The mentor boxes were designed and made for LACC but until such time as actual mentors start using them for real how can you evaluate them fully (i.e. not in the cool and calm of a workshop)? Now its been determined that this design is NOT very good and we now have a very good case to argue.
2. "So headsets and mentor boxes only work if we don`t use them....fantastic."
??? I'm sure you've experienced lose wires in headsets before. Your response is rather facile, I don't believe you let your car sit in your garage all day because when you use it it wears it out and needs servicing etc.
3. "Perish the thought that the operational staff would have any say in the matter."
Is it the operational staff who prepare and argue for Investment Proposals? No. What I said was this is ammunition to get the NATS management to spend the money. There are 100's of things the operational staff want changing (different things for different watches and people) but we're only given so much money.
4. "one of the fundemental principles of the NERC operation can be overided by ignoring it!!!"
Did I say that? I'm sure I said that you can make background = foreground if you want to see all the background tracks.
Anyway why are you 'having a go' at me? I'm trying to inform you how things are going and whats being done on the operational staff's behalf. I'm sorry that we have no magic wand to wave and 'fix' everything that is perceived to need it, but this is life. Also responses like yours do not motivate people to do the very best job they can on your behalf, in fact it reduces co-operation.
Don't understand your response.
1. The mentor boxes were designed and made for LACC but until such time as actual mentors start using them for real how can you evaluate them fully (i.e. not in the cool and calm of a workshop)? Now its been determined that this design is NOT very good and we now have a very good case to argue.
2. "So headsets and mentor boxes only work if we don`t use them....fantastic."
??? I'm sure you've experienced lose wires in headsets before. Your response is rather facile, I don't believe you let your car sit in your garage all day because when you use it it wears it out and needs servicing etc.
3. "Perish the thought that the operational staff would have any say in the matter."
Is it the operational staff who prepare and argue for Investment Proposals? No. What I said was this is ammunition to get the NATS management to spend the money. There are 100's of things the operational staff want changing (different things for different watches and people) but we're only given so much money.
4. "one of the fundemental principles of the NERC operation can be overided by ignoring it!!!"
Did I say that? I'm sure I said that you can make background = foreground if you want to see all the background tracks.
Anyway why are you 'having a go' at me? I'm trying to inform you how things are going and whats being done on the operational staff's behalf. I'm sorry that we have no magic wand to wave and 'fix' everything that is perceived to need it, but this is life. Also responses like yours do not motivate people to do the very best job they can on your behalf, in fact it reduces co-operation.
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atco-matic: You forgot to mention that, even assuming we can quickly make the switch given the difficulties you outline, that will still be no good as we cannot reach the hand transmit switch because that is underneath the strip board which was not supposed to be there when the console was designed. We are told that to reposition the transmit switch away from the strip board is impossible/too difficult/too costly (take your pick which and I'm sure Take 3 will have something to say about it...).
That leaves only the foot transmit switch, and to get at that you have to shift the trainee out of the seat and sit down yourself without getting your cables tangled up while still maintaining the traffic picture and responding to calls. Meantime two aircraft are, as the press would have it, hurtling towards each other at 10 miles a minute with you unable to take effective preventative action.
However you dress it up as being inevitable because you can only test things properly in operational use rather than 'in the cool and calm of a workshop' I think most would agree that it is an unsatisfactory, not to say potentially dangerous, way of going about things.
Take3: I understand where you are coming from, and I must say I admire your unwavering loyalty to the NERC system, but the things which are happening are just those things we were worried about. Long before NERC opened many members of the NTT and others raised serious worries and were told that there was no cause for concern as the testing was exhaustive and all possibilities had been anticipated. This is patently not the case, as recent events have shown. Even where faults were found, they were not fixed, with the result that a known problem with splitting from a workstation caused 178,000 minutes of delay when it happened again a few weeks back!!
That leaves only the foot transmit switch, and to get at that you have to shift the trainee out of the seat and sit down yourself without getting your cables tangled up while still maintaining the traffic picture and responding to calls. Meantime two aircraft are, as the press would have it, hurtling towards each other at 10 miles a minute with you unable to take effective preventative action.
However you dress it up as being inevitable because you can only test things properly in operational use rather than 'in the cool and calm of a workshop' I think most would agree that it is an unsatisfactory, not to say potentially dangerous, way of going about things.
Take3: I understand where you are coming from, and I must say I admire your unwavering loyalty to the NERC system, but the things which are happening are just those things we were worried about. Long before NERC opened many members of the NTT and others raised serious worries and were told that there was no cause for concern as the testing was exhaustive and all possibilities had been anticipated. This is patently not the case, as recent events have shown. Even where faults were found, they were not fixed, with the result that a known problem with splitting from a workstation caused 178,000 minutes of delay when it happened again a few weeks back!!
Beady Eye
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"We are told that to reposition the transmit switch away from the strip board is impossible/too difficult/too costly (take your pick which and I'm sure Take 3 will have something to say about it...). "
Nope, got nothing to say, other than all of the above. If you have a fully reliable mentor box then moving the PTT switch becomes redundant.
"Take3: I understand where you are coming from, and I must say I admire your unwavering loyalty to the NERC system"
Not unwavering loyalty, just trying to communicate to anyone who wants to listen how things are and what your support staff are trying to do to get things working how you want them. I consider that we are part of a team, trying to achieve the same goals (namely moving traffic safely and expeditiously). The 'enemy' is NATS senior management who require us to jump through a whole set of hoops before authorising the funds to let us work on the operational difficulties you're experiencing.
More update for you on the font issue. We had hoped to demo the new, improved fonts in early July. However we've encountered licensing problems with the Verdana font. So until they're resolved we've had to delay the demo until late August.
Nope, got nothing to say, other than all of the above. If you have a fully reliable mentor box then moving the PTT switch becomes redundant.
"Take3: I understand where you are coming from, and I must say I admire your unwavering loyalty to the NERC system"
Not unwavering loyalty, just trying to communicate to anyone who wants to listen how things are and what your support staff are trying to do to get things working how you want them. I consider that we are part of a team, trying to achieve the same goals (namely moving traffic safely and expeditiously). The 'enemy' is NATS senior management who require us to jump through a whole set of hoops before authorising the funds to let us work on the operational difficulties you're experiencing.
More update for you on the font issue. We had hoped to demo the new, improved fonts in early July. However we've encountered licensing problems with the Verdana font. So until they're resolved we've had to delay the demo until late August.
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Take 3: Thanks for your response.
QUOTE
Nope, got nothing to say, other than all of the above. If you have a fully reliable mentor box then moving the PTT switch becomes redundant.
UNQUOTE
Ahh, but there's the rub! There are no reliable mentor boxes at present, are there?
In addition, no consideration is given to those people who, like me, preferred at LATCC to use the hand PTT switch because I found it more comfortable. This option is now not available, and I wonder whether HSE considered the possible effects upon people's posture and possible subsequent back troubles through being constrained to a fairly narrow range of movement by the need to reach the foot switch whilst being able to see the screen properly (as if!!).
I do understand your point of view, but the fact remains that there are many features about NERC, some of which are only just crawling out of the woodwork (metaphor, since we all know wood is forbidden due fire risk or aesthetic reasons
) and which should have been sorted long ago rather than passing it all off as 'perfect'. If this had been the case, I suspect the cost involved would have been lower than retrofits, but that would have meant certain senior managers admitting they had signed for a specification which was unsatisfactory. That would mean taking responsibility for their actions and we all know that sloping shoulders abound on the third floor! (But if the rumour on another thread is true, sloping shoulders leading to capacious pockets seem also to be in evidence).
QUOTE
Nope, got nothing to say, other than all of the above. If you have a fully reliable mentor box then moving the PTT switch becomes redundant.
UNQUOTE
Ahh, but there's the rub! There are no reliable mentor boxes at present, are there?
In addition, no consideration is given to those people who, like me, preferred at LATCC to use the hand PTT switch because I found it more comfortable. This option is now not available, and I wonder whether HSE considered the possible effects upon people's posture and possible subsequent back troubles through being constrained to a fairly narrow range of movement by the need to reach the foot switch whilst being able to see the screen properly (as if!!).
I do understand your point of view, but the fact remains that there are many features about NERC, some of which are only just crawling out of the woodwork (metaphor, since we all know wood is forbidden due fire risk or aesthetic reasons
) and which should have been sorted long ago rather than passing it all off as 'perfect'. If this had been the case, I suspect the cost involved would have been lower than retrofits, but that would have meant certain senior managers admitting they had signed for a specification which was unsatisfactory. That would mean taking responsibility for their actions and we all know that sloping shoulders abound on the third floor! (But if the rumour on another thread is true, sloping shoulders leading to capacious pockets seem also to be in evidence).
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Eye in the Sky;
Send your techs over here to take a look at our over ride system. It works everytime with NO problems at all... I have yet to see one replaced in the new control room (about three years old now). We did have to replace some old ones in the old room, but that was just due to age...
regards
Send your techs over here to take a look at our over ride system. It works everytime with NO problems at all... I have yet to see one replaced in the new control room (about three years old now). We did have to replace some old ones in the old room, but that was just due to age...
regards
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dodgy boxes
Ok, trainee had an incident and mentor couldnt get box to work. Now all mentors are doing an r/t check every time they sit down - fine. However, as we all know headsets, phones and mentor boxes can fail whenever, just go, even when not long back from being serviced! So it seems to me that people can sit there and test all day, till their little hearts content, but unfortunately it just happens, end of story, yes at the wrong time admittedly, but just an unfortunate coincidence in this case. Heart goes out to trainee and mentor for grilling in papers etc,like to see the bloody journalists have a go at this job!
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vectorin vixen:
Yup, I and every other atco in the world have had things fail on me , sometimes at the most inopportune moments (I learned about controlling and prayer moments!)
However, these pieces of sh*t have been failing regularly and eventually have contributed to an incident (allegedly). There`s the difference.
Yup, I and every other atco in the world have had things fail on me , sometimes at the most inopportune moments (I learned about controlling and prayer moments!)
However, these pieces of sh*t have been failing regularly and eventually have contributed to an incident (allegedly). There`s the difference.
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The guilty training boxes are now withdrawn and are sitting in the watch manager's office looking sorry for themselves.
We have an edict from RH saying that some trainees can continue OJTI without the boxes. It is at the mentor's discretion (just seen the buck). I remember several times in the past (one of them on the old CLN sector) when the mentor had to take control very quickly when the trainee did something completely out of character and unexpectedly. Remember boys and girls, people have failed boards.
IF YOU TRAIN AND HAVE AN INCIDENT WHICH YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED BY USE OF THE BOX THEN HAVE NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, YOU WILL GET BLAMED.
Z
We have an edict from RH saying that some trainees can continue OJTI without the boxes. It is at the mentor's discretion (just seen the buck). I remember several times in the past (one of them on the old CLN sector) when the mentor had to take control very quickly when the trainee did something completely out of character and unexpectedly. Remember boys and girls, people have failed boards.
IF YOU TRAIN AND HAVE AN INCIDENT WHICH YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED BY USE OF THE BOX THEN HAVE NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, YOU WILL GET BLAMED.
Z
