WW2 aircrew in ATC
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Jockland
Shanwick
Early 80's Shanwick.
Jock Ellis - Spit and Typhoon
Roger Leyland - Spit
Bob Good - Sunderland
Alistair McKie/McKay - Wellington
There were quiet a few others but time and memory have let me down.
Apologies to all I have forgotten.
Great Guys.
Jock Ellis - Spit and Typhoon
Roger Leyland - Spit
Bob Good - Sunderland
Alistair McKie/McKay - Wellington
There were quiet a few others but time and memory have let me down.
Apologies to all I have forgotten.
Great Guys.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 11
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From: Somerset
While on a Cadet course in the 1960s I came across many controllers who were ex WWII aircrew. At Aldergrove was a Hugh(?) McGrath who walked with a limp. Apparently after his Halifax was shot down over France he walked across the Pyranees into neutral Spain nursing a broken leg!
Later at Southampton I met Denis Cooper (mentioned in a previous post above) and also Ron Hooper who had been a bomb aimer on Lancasters. The latter told an amusing story which I have retold many times. Apparently on long bombing missions some crews carried a large tin can for use when nature called. Anyone needing this would call on the intercom for it to be passed along. Anyone that is, except the poor rear gunner who could not be accessed in his turret. After several missions he complained that it was alright for the others but it just made things worse for him becuase he could hear the others passing the can around. Ever sympathetic, the rest of the crew decided to use a coded message and if they needed the can they would say, "Ron, you've left your light on". This worked for a while until one day a very angry rear gunner grabbed Ron by the throat and threatened to beat him up! When asked why he replied, "Because you are putting all our lives in danger by flying us around Germany with your light on. You'll get us all killed!"
Later at Southampton I met Denis Cooper (mentioned in a previous post above) and also Ron Hooper who had been a bomb aimer on Lancasters. The latter told an amusing story which I have retold many times. Apparently on long bombing missions some crews carried a large tin can for use when nature called. Anyone needing this would call on the intercom for it to be passed along. Anyone that is, except the poor rear gunner who could not be accessed in his turret. After several missions he complained that it was alright for the others but it just made things worse for him becuase he could hear the others passing the can around. Ever sympathetic, the rest of the crew decided to use a coded message and if they needed the can they would say, "Ron, you've left your light on". This worked for a while until one day a very angry rear gunner grabbed Ron by the throat and threatened to beat him up! When asked why he replied, "Because you are putting all our lives in danger by flying us around Germany with your light on. You'll get us all killed!"
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
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From: Berkshire, UK
Leopilot... Do you know what happened to Denis Cooper after Southampton? I drive past his old house every day and often wonder about him. He told a story about flying in bombers. One night over Germany he suffered what he politely called a "loose bowel" and grabbed a newspaper to employ as a toilet. He then "flushed" it down a tube used for dropping flares but somehow it "lit back" and he got covered from head to foot!! Another crew member said: "Crikey Denis you smell like a sh@t house", to which Denis replied "I am a sh@t house!"
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Peter Ward-Hunt (ex Bedford) was a Flight Commander in 106 Squadron at Syerston.
His Squadron Commander was Guy Gibson who a few months later went on to command 617 Squadron during the famous "Dambusting" raid on the Mohne and Eder dams in May 1943.
His Squadron Commander was Guy Gibson who a few months later went on to command 617 Squadron during the famous "Dambusting" raid on the Mohne and Eder dams in May 1943.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
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From: southampton,hampshire,england
Super Dooper old stories, what? Some of my family live about 1 km from the Ruhr river......some live just outside Bielefeld [near the viaduct]. I wonder if we'll ever stop glorifying insane slaughter? No doubt next year there will be yet another obscure celebration to justify jingoism.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 119
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From: London, Monte Carlo and Bermuda (I wish!)
The insanity was total war, 055166k, forced upon the world by a monster culture that had to be defeated. No sane person revels in raining down death, but without those brave aviators and their sacrifices none of us would be here today. Lets celebrate our survival and make sure that the terrible events of the war do not happen again.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 32
Likes: 2
From: Can't remember
What a crass comment.
There are plenty of people on here who have relatives in London, Coventry, Manchester and probably knew people in Auschwitz etc etc.
Maybe you should remember you probably have freedom of speech due to people whose names are being remembered here.
I cannot see 'glorification in insane slaughter' in any comments above. Dear God.
I really hope you are a troll.
There are plenty of people on here who have relatives in London, Coventry, Manchester and probably knew people in Auschwitz etc etc.
Maybe you should remember you probably have freedom of speech due to people whose names are being remembered here.
I cannot see 'glorification in insane slaughter' in any comments above. Dear God.
I really hope you are a troll.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 865
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From: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
055166k.
I was stating a fact about Peter Ward-Hunt and his wartime service.
I was standing at the memorial at RAF Wickenby, near Lincoln on Thursday which commemorated 1076 young men, most of them teenagers who flew from there in defence of this country in its direst hour of need and now lie in graves all over Europe.
Last year I was at the site of the prison camp for Ukrainian women just downstream from the Mohne Dam most of whom were drowned in the ensuing floods in 1943.
I felt a lot of emotion but jingoism or celebration were not amongst them.
I was stating a fact about Peter Ward-Hunt and his wartime service.
I was standing at the memorial at RAF Wickenby, near Lincoln on Thursday which commemorated 1076 young men, most of them teenagers who flew from there in defence of this country in its direst hour of need and now lie in graves all over Europe.
Last year I was at the site of the prison camp for Ukrainian women just downstream from the Mohne Dam most of whom were drowned in the ensuing floods in 1943.
I felt a lot of emotion but jingoism or celebration were not amongst them.
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 5th October 2015 at 18:03.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 11
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From: Somerset
Brendan - Sorry I don't know much about what happened to Dennis Cooper. I left Southampton in 1972 and I believe he took over from me as SATCO for a short while but then left (retired?) not long afterwards. My abiding memory of him was one day at Southampton when an RAF Devon arrived carrying an officer of Air rank who was met with a guard of honour before being driven off in a staff car. Dennis, observing this from the tower, looked down and said, "Ah, it's old Tommy! Of course, he never got anywhere!"
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,146
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From: Herefordshire
leopilot
Before my time at Boscombe ( 83-86 ) there had been an ATCO named McGrath, can't recall his first name, who had some sort of 'gammy leg' as a result, I think, of what you described above.
Apparently a hard barsteward, according to the much younger ex-cadets who worked there, and he became Mayor of Salisbury.
He is mentioned, I think, in Max Hastings book on Bomber Command. My copy is in store so unable to check.
055166K
Stu, I think you've overstepped the mark with your comment - as others have said this thread is not about glorification of war, the OP asked a simple question and many of us have been pleased to contribute and recall those colleagues who had served our country during WW2.
Apparently a hard barsteward, according to the much younger ex-cadets who worked there, and he became Mayor of Salisbury.
He is mentioned, I think, in Max Hastings book on Bomber Command. My copy is in store so unable to check.
055166K
Stu, I think you've overstepped the mark with your comment - as others have said this thread is not about glorification of war, the OP asked a simple question and many of us have been pleased to contribute and recall those colleagues who had served our country during WW2.
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 5th October 2015 at 16:58. Reason: Addition
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Asgard
There were a few blokes at Glasgow in my time there. John Clark, a watch sup was a Mossie navigator. I think the Satco Bill Bain (?) was a Lanc pilot, as was the training officer; can't remember his name. One of the assistants was crew on Whitleys and spent most of the unpleasantness as a POW.
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Wildest Surrey
Before my time at Boscombe ( 83-86 ) there had been an ATCO named McGrath, can't recall his first name, who had some sort of 'gammy leg' as a result, I think, of what you described above.
Apparently a hard barsteward, according to the much younger ex-cadets who worked there, and he became Mayor of Salisbury.
He is mentioned, I think, in Max Hastings book on Bomber Command. My copy is in store so unable to check.
Apparently a hard barsteward, according to the much younger ex-cadets who worked there, and he became Mayor of Salisbury.
He is mentioned, I think, in Max Hastings book on Bomber Command. My copy is in store so unable to check.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 309
Likes: 4
From: Living In The Past
@ Loki
Bill Bain it was - Chief Officer, & the Training Officer was Bill Walton. The ATCA was Jim McCutcheon - he was an LAC on a 102 Sq. Whitley shot down in May 1940 & became a Caterpillar Club member after bailing out to become a POW for the duration - & a good bloke he was too :-)
My Watch SATCA at Heathrow, Bob Cook, was a Sergeant with 219 Squadron on Blenheims & is on the Battle of Britain Roll of Honour.
Bill Bain it was - Chief Officer, & the Training Officer was Bill Walton. The ATCA was Jim McCutcheon - he was an LAC on a 102 Sq. Whitley shot down in May 1940 & became a Caterpillar Club member after bailing out to become a POW for the duration - & a good bloke he was too :-)
My Watch SATCA at Heathrow, Bob Cook, was a Sergeant with 219 Squadron on Blenheims & is on the Battle of Britain Roll of Honour.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ex-wartime aircrew in postwar ATC.
It seems difficult to tease out exactly when ATC became a sub-branch of GD post war, but Wiki gives:
"....[RAF] Watchfield was also involved in Air Traffic Control as the School of Air Traffic Control used Watchfield between 1 November 1946 and 10 February 1950 before moving to RAF Shawbury. [4]"
Clearly the obvious people to train as Air Traffic Controllers were the large number of aircrew (with ex-pilots and navigators being particularly suitable) who had remained in (or returned to) the RAF post-war, and for whom there were no longer flying posts available. Even when I transferred from GD(Pilot) to ATC in Apl '55, I think my Course at Shawbury was 100% ex-war aircrew: every Control Tower in the land could rustle-up at least one complete ex-bomber crew from its members.
This arrangement suited everybody; the new Controllers operated in a world completely familiar to them, they knew the layout of airfields like the back of their hands, circuit, approach aids and R/T procedures were second nature to them, and they had emphathy with the post-war aircrew (who were mainly their contemporaries). In a word, they were "naturals" for this new job, and they all "spoke the same language" as 'buddies'.
From the RAF point of view it was win-win too. At their wartime ITWs all had learned basic meteorology, navigation, signals, Theory of Flight, armaments and Administration and Organisation of the RAF - and they'd had years of hard and often dangerous experience to back it up. As I recall, it was only in the early '60s that the new recruits started coming in in any number; these now had to be taught ab initio all the skills that the Old Brigade brought with them gratis as far as the training organisation was concerned.
It is not surprising that there were hundreds of these old timers around until the time I retired in '72, when the inevitable clear-out had to happen, and the new boys and girls took over.
Danny42C.
"....[RAF] Watchfield was also involved in Air Traffic Control as the School of Air Traffic Control used Watchfield between 1 November 1946 and 10 February 1950 before moving to RAF Shawbury. [4]"
Clearly the obvious people to train as Air Traffic Controllers were the large number of aircrew (with ex-pilots and navigators being particularly suitable) who had remained in (or returned to) the RAF post-war, and for whom there were no longer flying posts available. Even when I transferred from GD(Pilot) to ATC in Apl '55, I think my Course at Shawbury was 100% ex-war aircrew: every Control Tower in the land could rustle-up at least one complete ex-bomber crew from its members.
This arrangement suited everybody; the new Controllers operated in a world completely familiar to them, they knew the layout of airfields like the back of their hands, circuit, approach aids and R/T procedures were second nature to them, and they had emphathy with the post-war aircrew (who were mainly their contemporaries). In a word, they were "naturals" for this new job, and they all "spoke the same language" as 'buddies'.
From the RAF point of view it was win-win too. At their wartime ITWs all had learned basic meteorology, navigation, signals, Theory of Flight, armaments and Administration and Organisation of the RAF - and they'd had years of hard and often dangerous experience to back it up. As I recall, it was only in the early '60s that the new recruits started coming in in any number; these now had to be taught ab initio all the skills that the Old Brigade brought with them gratis as far as the training organisation was concerned.
It is not surprising that there were hundreds of these old timers around until the time I retired in '72, when the inevitable clear-out had to happen, and the new boys and girls took over.
Danny42C.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 155
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John Woodbridge, known as Woo
When I joined at LATCC, Woo was a Chief Sector Controller.
I was told a story that he flew Wellingtons in the war and was caught in a search light and they dived to escape it.
During the pull out, the nav, was winding back the trim with both pilots pulling as hard as they could, the wings bent upwards.
They then dropped the bomb load at their target and the wings were written off back in the UK.
I was told a story that he flew Wellingtons in the war and was caught in a search light and they dived to escape it.
During the pull out, the nav, was winding back the trim with both pilots pulling as hard as they could, the wings bent upwards.
They then dropped the bomb load at their target and the wings were written off back in the UK.
