Evening ATC operations question!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here.
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evening ATC operations question!
Hi Guys,
I've just noticed that from the turn of this year ATC operations at my local International Airport has change in that at night, the same controller works both radar and tower communications at the same time and passes flights between the two frequencies.
Is this normal and does it work without problems or is it a cost cutting exercise?
And does it mean that the one controller operates from the tower with a visual of the airfield whilst also having a radar screen to refer to?
I've just noticed that from the turn of this year ATC operations at my local International Airport has change in that at night, the same controller works both radar and tower communications at the same time and passes flights between the two frequencies.
Is this normal and does it work without problems or is it a cost cutting exercise?
And does it mean that the one controller operates from the tower with a visual of the airfield whilst also having a radar screen to refer to?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Behind the radar
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depending on the local operating procedures of the ATC unit, be it Tower, Approach and/or Area, sectors (and subsequent frequencies) can be combined day or night depending on the operational requirements.
As long as the ATC is qualified/rated on each sector, that is.
As long as the ATC is qualified/rated on each sector, that is.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here.
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, it is in the UK at EGNT.
Obviously the workload is lighter at night with fewer arrivals and departures but it seemed only to have started this year. Is it to cut costs or simply an operational decision?
Obviously the workload is lighter at night with fewer arrivals and departures but it seemed only to have started this year. Is it to cut costs or simply an operational decision?
To cut costs. Suddenly, what used to be considered, for good reason, to be unacceptable is now justified on an individual unit basis. You start with the desired outcome and work the logic backwards to justify it.
2 s
2 s
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here.
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is this way of working ever likely to be unsafe?
Could it, in practice, ever jeopardise the safety of an aircraft and it's cargo?
Presumably the 'powers that be' have done an in depth study to prove not?
Could it, in practice, ever jeopardise the safety of an aircraft and it's cargo?
Presumably the 'powers that be' have done an in depth study to prove not?
Where I work, combining positions at the same sector or unit is normal, and acceptable, in light traffic.
Combining two completely different sectors I'd consider to be unduly risky. Because the combination of factors that could bring about "undue risk" might only happen a few times a year (or month), I guess the bean counters have decided it's acceptable. Safety cases tend to be internal, and can have quite subjective interpretations, depending on who is doing it.
To anyone who finds themselves having to work two sectors, try and keep a robust scan going. If you can combine the required info onto one display, or at least displays at one operating position (rather than having to lean or walk from one to the other) and combine the frequencies, that can help.
In my experience, we aren't that well trained in how to manage the unusual, or high-demand situations. A few tips and tricks from those who have had to do it are worth a bit.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To cut costs. Suddenly, what used to be considered, for good reason, to be unacceptable is now justified on an individual unit basis. You start with the desired outcome and work the logic backwards to justify it.
A classic example 'of one size does not fit all'!
How ridiculous that a Unit awaiting one aircraft should require two controllers, one in tower and one in radar. A radar rated tower controller with modern radar displays can easily position an aircraft on to an ILS.
The rule was invented in the days of radar controllers working in darkened rooms. It was clearly an appropriate rule in those days but not in 2015!
The use of radar by a tower controller merely requires appropriate risk management, followed by strict application of the procedures so designed.
I would rather have the tower controller providing a limited radar service [to limited traffic] than have the tower controller reading a newspaper, watching TV or merely immersed in conversation......all possible distractions to the job in hand.
H49
How ridiculous that a Unit awaiting one aircraft should require two controllers, one in tower and one in radar. A radar rated tower controller with modern radar displays can easily position an aircraft on to an ILS.
The rule was invented in the days of radar controllers working in darkened rooms. It was clearly an appropriate rule in those days but not in 2015!
The use of radar by a tower controller merely requires appropriate risk management, followed by strict application of the procedures so designed.
I would rather have the tower controller providing a limited radar service [to limited traffic] than have the tower controller reading a newspaper, watching TV or merely immersed in conversation......all possible distractions to the job in hand.
H49
A radar rated tower controller with modern radar displays can easily position an aircraft on to an ILS.
2 s
I have found this thread interesting.
While there is possibly a case to be made in limited circumstances (subject to a safety case) where an ATCO holding both ratings (APP Radar and AMC) could perform a "safe" operation.
Aviation is safe primarily because it uses evolution with harsh lessons to develop and refine its procedures.
All too often today the subtleties get lost in the mix.
An increasing number of decision makers lack practical experience in real life ATC operations.
Their understanding of the practical use of; application of and the imitations of technology being the most obvious.
One only has to look at some of the comments in other threads about the lack of understanding in some quarters as to what is possible/feasible/realistic or even safe.
While there is possibly a case to be made in limited circumstances (subject to a safety case) where an ATCO holding both ratings (APP Radar and AMC) could perform a "safe" operation.
Aviation is safe primarily because it uses evolution with harsh lessons to develop and refine its procedures.
All too often today the subtleties get lost in the mix.
An increasing number of decision makers lack practical experience in real life ATC operations.
Their understanding of the practical use of; application of and the imitations of technology being the most obvious.
One only has to look at some of the comments in other threads about the lack of understanding in some quarters as to what is possible/feasible/realistic or even safe.
I believe it's just a trial allowed by the CAA at certain airfields with low traffic density ie late at night/early morning; it's not (yet) a permanent thing and won't happen during 'normal' daytime traffic levels.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The airports which are trialling this have presumably installed approach radar equipment in the VCR, or is it being done on the aerodrome traffic monitor?
Do modern ATMs display Mode S information?
Do modern ATMs display Mode S information?
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pretty standard now in a few UK airports at night.....here's the Newcastle and Edinburgh NOTAM
Q) EGPX/QSPLT/IV/BO/A/000/999/5502N00141W005
B) FROM: 14/12/23 21:30C) TO: 15/03/31 07:00
E) RADAR AND TOWER MAY BE PROVIDED AS A COMBINED FUNCTION. INBOUND AND
TRANSIT AIRCRAFT SHOULD CONTINUE TO CALL ON 124.375 MHZ, AND
OUTBOUND AIRCRAFT ON 119.7 MHZ.
SCHEDULE: 2130-0700
C6537/14
Q) EGPX/QSPLT/IV/BO/A/000/999/5502N00141W005
E) EDINBURGH RADAR AND TOWER MAY BE PROVIDED AS A COMBINED SERVICE
WITH COUPLED FREQUENCIES. INBOUND AND OVERFLYING AIRCRAFT SHOULD CTC
EDINBURGH RADAR ON 121.2 MHZ. OUTBOUND AIRCRAFT SHOULD CTC EDINBURGH
TOWER ON 118.7 MHZ.
SCHEDULE: 0000-0530
A4162/14
Q) EGPX/QSPLT/IV/BO/A/000/999/5502N00141W005
B) FROM: 14/12/23 21:30C) TO: 15/03/31 07:00
E) RADAR AND TOWER MAY BE PROVIDED AS A COMBINED FUNCTION. INBOUND AND
TRANSIT AIRCRAFT SHOULD CONTINUE TO CALL ON 124.375 MHZ, AND
OUTBOUND AIRCRAFT ON 119.7 MHZ.
SCHEDULE: 2130-0700
C6537/14
Q) EGPX/QSPLT/IV/BO/A/000/999/5502N00141W005
E) EDINBURGH RADAR AND TOWER MAY BE PROVIDED AS A COMBINED SERVICE
WITH COUPLED FREQUENCIES. INBOUND AND OVERFLYING AIRCRAFT SHOULD CTC
EDINBURGH RADAR ON 121.2 MHZ. OUTBOUND AIRCRAFT SHOULD CTC EDINBURGH
TOWER ON 118.7 MHZ.
SCHEDULE: 0000-0530
A4162/14
UK MATS Part1 CAP493 is fairly clear on this:
Funny how many of the rules no longer apply when they are too expensive to be convenient.
An Aerodrome Control unit provides services principally to aircraft flying with visual reference to the surface in, and in the vicinity of, the ATZ and operating on the manoeuvring area. It is normally a separate unit but may be combined, either temporarily or permanently, with an Approach Control unit.
An aerodrome controller shall not provide Approach Radar Control Services whilst engaged on Aerodrome Control duties.
An aerodrome controller shall not provide Approach Radar Control Services whilst engaged on Aerodrome Control duties.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dorset
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funny how many of the rules no longer apply when they are too expensive to be convenient.
Also, it was the UK's largest ANSP that drove this change with the CAA.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is subject to risk assessments and strict procedures and training.