MAN APP Sat p.m. 25/5
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
MAN APP Sat p.m. 25/5
If you were on MAN APP last Saturday afternoon, thanks for allowing us a transit the corner of your CTR (we were in the PA 28 Blackpool - Nottingham - Blackpool), although my colleague was flying the outbound leg.
We tried (perhaps a bit too optimistically) for a transit Congleton - Jodrell Bank - Stretton on the flight back to Blackpool, but this was not possible, due to departing traffic. Had there been a lull in departures at the time we were passing Manchester, would it have been likely that we could have been cleared Congleton - Jodrell Bank - Stretton?
We tried (perhaps a bit too optimistically) for a transit Congleton - Jodrell Bank - Stretton on the flight back to Blackpool, but this was not possible, due to departing traffic. Had there been a lull in departures at the time we were passing Manchester, would it have been likely that we could have been cleared Congleton - Jodrell Bank - Stretton?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 333
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From: By the big Teapot
Hi Topunicyclist.
The basic answer is no, I'm afraid it's a non starter unless it's a winter Saturday and you just hit the right time to transit. I'll try and keep this simple to show you what the MAN APP and TWR guy do so you can see what goes on behind the scenes when we accomodate such a request. To make this work you need to remember that the TWR man can see the outbounds taxying but the APP man is down in the 'dark'.......
You make your request, lets assume you want 1500ft QNH or more...APP phone tower and check (stop), all Listo departures.....This isn't a problem until you pass Jodrell Bank. Lets say that at this point the tower ring APP and say they have one..O.K. APP then issue a non standard IFR clearance to the outbound and then ring the appropriate AREA sector to tell them what to expect....The ATSA logs the IFR non standard clearance to avoid MIA fining the outbound for a noise violation.....If there is any IFR departure on any routeing behind the Listo it picks up a knock on delay which can vary between 1 and 4 minutes depending on aircraft type............As you get near Knutsford APP phones TWR to give 'tracks clear' Listo departures, and check (stop) Nokin/Monty/Wallasey departures....at this point, if there are any departures then read again the bit above that starts..'Lets say at this point...' ...As you leave the zone into the low-level route we give tracks clear and back to normal ops...Pheeew!!!
Variations to this can involve APP identifiying you to TWR and TWR applying the non-standard clearance to the outbound IFR traffic, if neccessary, but co-ordination remains the same. The complication comes because the standard ATC system is designed to give the TWR a 'free fire zone' for departures and you would be requesting transit through this zone. There are certain areas we can let you go through under certain operational circumstances and we'll do our best to offer a short cut if possible but the best thing is to plan for the Low-level route. I'm bound to have forgotten something cos I've got a streaming cold at the moment and feel c**p! Thought I'd chip in with something as the usual Manchester posters didn't seem to be forthcoming.
Spiney
The basic answer is no, I'm afraid it's a non starter unless it's a winter Saturday and you just hit the right time to transit. I'll try and keep this simple to show you what the MAN APP and TWR guy do so you can see what goes on behind the scenes when we accomodate such a request. To make this work you need to remember that the TWR man can see the outbounds taxying but the APP man is down in the 'dark'.......
You make your request, lets assume you want 1500ft QNH or more...APP phone tower and check (stop), all Listo departures.....This isn't a problem until you pass Jodrell Bank. Lets say that at this point the tower ring APP and say they have one..O.K. APP then issue a non standard IFR clearance to the outbound and then ring the appropriate AREA sector to tell them what to expect....The ATSA logs the IFR non standard clearance to avoid MIA fining the outbound for a noise violation.....If there is any IFR departure on any routeing behind the Listo it picks up a knock on delay which can vary between 1 and 4 minutes depending on aircraft type............As you get near Knutsford APP phones TWR to give 'tracks clear' Listo departures, and check (stop) Nokin/Monty/Wallasey departures....at this point, if there are any departures then read again the bit above that starts..'Lets say at this point...' ...As you leave the zone into the low-level route we give tracks clear and back to normal ops...Pheeew!!!
Variations to this can involve APP identifiying you to TWR and TWR applying the non-standard clearance to the outbound IFR traffic, if neccessary, but co-ordination remains the same. The complication comes because the standard ATC system is designed to give the TWR a 'free fire zone' for departures and you would be requesting transit through this zone. There are certain areas we can let you go through under certain operational circumstances and we'll do our best to offer a short cut if possible but the best thing is to plan for the Low-level route. I'm bound to have forgotten something cos I've got a streaming cold at the moment and feel c**p! Thought I'd chip in with something as the usual Manchester posters didn't seem to be forthcoming.
Spiney
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 535
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From: Toronto
I would say that on the 24s, Congleton, JB, Stretton not above 1500 wouldn't cause me as many headaches as Spiney aludes to and I would happily do it. It is, after all, only Class D airspace and standard radar or vertical separation is not necessary.
I would, however, agree that you would be identified to the Tower Departure controller and he would "miss" you with the departures, probably without resorting to non-standard departures or a "check".
Coming any closer in, ie via Knutsford or up the M6 like the Police tend to do, now thats a different matter!
Ask and you might get, but if you have to wait 5 minutes to get in on the radio, then best not to ask!
Edited to add: Make sure you're not above 1250 just after JB since Liverpool inbounds fly at 1800 QNH over the Low Level Route!
All the best...
I would, however, agree that you would be identified to the Tower Departure controller and he would "miss" you with the departures, probably without resorting to non-standard departures or a "check".
Coming any closer in, ie via Knutsford or up the M6 like the Police tend to do, now thats a different matter!
Ask and you might get, but if you have to wait 5 minutes to get in on the radio, then best not to ask!
Edited to add: Make sure you're not above 1250 just after JB since Liverpool inbounds fly at 1800 QNH over the Low Level Route!
All the best...
Last edited by cossack; 30th May 2002 at 13:17.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 333
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From: By the big Teapot
Ah Cossack! Wondered where you'd been. No, it wouldn't cause me a great problem either, depending on overall traffic, but just wanted to post a simplified post that would probably reflect the actions of the most 'book bound' ATCO. After I'd started I wished I hadn't bothered!!! As we could get into SVFR, VFR/IFR requiring only traffic information but actions of pilots then requesting an alternative clearance, Duty of care, etc, etc.... Anyway, shouldn't you be on this afternoon!!!!!
Spiney
Spiney
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 535
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
No, I've not been here much lately but thanks for keeping things moving in my absence
Fortunately there are many of us who are willing to go that bit further. Shame we're not all the same though, eh?
No, not in this afternoon either!
Fortunately there are many of us who are willing to go that bit further. Shame we're not all the same though, eh?
No, not in this afternoon either!
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 100
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From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Thanks for replies....I use the low level route quite a bit and living in central Warrington has its uses (I can track up and down it with reference to such prominent landmarks as Burger King, Pizza Hut, McDonalds etc).....do I take it then that it is LPL rather than MAN traffic that determines max altitude of the low level route?
(edited to correct numerous typos)
(edited to correct numerous typos)
Last edited by topunicyclist; 31st May 2002 at 08:24.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Box Hill or Bust
topunicyclist,
This is the case. The Liverpool 27 procedures start at the LPL and descent is to 1750' on the outbound leg and base turn. Further descent then starts at 5 DME. This gives 500' over the top of the LLC.
This is the case. The Liverpool 27 procedures start at the LPL and descent is to 1750' on the outbound leg and base turn. Further descent then starts at 5 DME. This gives 500' over the top of the LLC.
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I find that Liverpool are usually very helpful allowing flights from Whitegate NDB to Blackpool usually not above 1500feet. It does seem odd that the 'corridor' is Manchesters when Liverpool has the likes of boeing 737, 757 and the other day a TU154 flying 500 feet above it being given radar vectors to runway 27.
Anyone know why?
Anyone know why?
