Thames/Heathrow - G-LIZZ: It weren't me, honest!
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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...absolutely.
But even private pilots on jollies have as much right to be there as a tubeful of people going to Malaga or the Algarve on jollies.
But even private pilots on jollies have as much right to be there as a tubeful of people going to Malaga or the Algarve on jollies.
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Capt Kremmen,
When I trained as an ATCO in the early 80's,a PPL was part of the training.I know quite a few ATCOs who kept flying,and quite a few who are now Commercial Pilots.I kept PPL flying for some 20 years.Also we had a Fam Flight Scheme which was excellent to see what happens up front.However that took at hit post 9/11 for obvious reasons.
I think you are being unreasonable on Controllers.Just because we are busy and you are told to standby means the controller is doing what he trained to do.Priorities and managing the traffic.
There is also the safety factor.I have helped several PPLs who got lost,and have seen a few aircraft crash because the pilot was too ignorant/proud/scared to ask for help.Most controllers I worked with were only too willing to assist.
You over simplify aviation as well.Military,SAR and Ambulance,Gliding,Aircraft performance,all types of airspace....the list is endless.
We have a list of flight priorities and GA is at the bottom.However Commercial is well below emergencies and Royal Flights.
I will never hide behind my user name and if you PM me with a question,I will always answer with my name.
When I trained as an ATCO in the early 80's,a PPL was part of the training.I know quite a few ATCOs who kept flying,and quite a few who are now Commercial Pilots.I kept PPL flying for some 20 years.Also we had a Fam Flight Scheme which was excellent to see what happens up front.However that took at hit post 9/11 for obvious reasons.
I think you are being unreasonable on Controllers.Just because we are busy and you are told to standby means the controller is doing what he trained to do.Priorities and managing the traffic.
There is also the safety factor.I have helped several PPLs who got lost,and have seen a few aircraft crash because the pilot was too ignorant/proud/scared to ask for help.Most controllers I worked with were only too willing to assist.
You over simplify aviation as well.Military,SAR and Ambulance,Gliding,Aircraft performance,all types of airspace....the list is endless.
We have a list of flight priorities and GA is at the bottom.However Commercial is well below emergencies and Royal Flights.
I will never hide behind my user name and if you PM me with a question,I will always answer with my name.
Well I expected a bit of flak and I wasn't disappointed.
Shy Torque & throw a dice
I am well aware of the breadth and depth of GA. I had in mind the majority component. Again I'm aware that a portion of what is lumped as GA has a commercial aspect so is excluded from my observations.
Shy Torque & throw a dice
I am well aware of the breadth and depth of GA. I had in mind the majority component. Again I'm aware that a portion of what is lumped as GA has a commercial aspect so is excluded from my observations.
Avoid imitations
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Capt. K,
But you wrote:
Some of us in GA use the airspace because we need to depart and land at the airports within, so we certainly do pay, and much more per head than the IFR "bucket and spade trade" traffic.
But you wrote:
GA contributes nothing of any consequence to Commercial aviation and that is why GA is seen as an irrelevance.
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As a working ATCO who is very aware of his responsibilities to ALL traffic requesting access to the airspace I administer (and service outside) and has done his best to accommodate those requests over the years I would like to disassociate myself from all comments made by Capt.Kremmen...
....whose professional credentials I would be interested in knowing something of.
....whose professional credentials I would be interested in knowing something of.
ShyTorque
You're in a tiny minority of the whole.
Gapster
Anyone would think that I'm suggesting that commercial aviation and GA are in opposition !
Or, that commercial, like the US. 7th Cavalry wouldn't, at the drop of a hat, ride to the assistance of GA if an emergency arose.
None of that, have I inferred.
Because of the absence of a profit motive on the part of GA, commercial and GA have little in common. The interests of GA are not high on the commercial agenda which is profit driven. When the bills are due to be paid, GA do not have to put their hand in their pocket.
As to my 'professional credentials' ? They are neither here nor there. My comments are based on the observations of many, many years in aviation. They are the opinions of one individual. I know that because these opinions run counter to those held by others, they will tend to 'ruffle a few feathers'. That is the nature of a 'discussion forum'.
Timothy
My 'pen name' is related to the late, great much lamented TV personality, Kenny Everett whose inventive alter ego was: Captain Kremmen: "He's so hunky". You're maybe not old enough to remember !
You're in a tiny minority of the whole.
Gapster
Anyone would think that I'm suggesting that commercial aviation and GA are in opposition !
Or, that commercial, like the US. 7th Cavalry wouldn't, at the drop of a hat, ride to the assistance of GA if an emergency arose.
None of that, have I inferred.
Because of the absence of a profit motive on the part of GA, commercial and GA have little in common. The interests of GA are not high on the commercial agenda which is profit driven. When the bills are due to be paid, GA do not have to put their hand in their pocket.
As to my 'professional credentials' ? They are neither here nor there. My comments are based on the observations of many, many years in aviation. They are the opinions of one individual. I know that because these opinions run counter to those held by others, they will tend to 'ruffle a few feathers'. That is the nature of a 'discussion forum'.
Timothy
My 'pen name' is related to the late, great much lamented TV personality, Kenny Everett whose inventive alter ego was: Captain Kremmen: "He's so hunky". You're maybe not old enough to remember !
Avoid imitations
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ShyTorque
You're in a tiny minority of the whole.
You're in a tiny minority of the whole.
What is General Aviation - iaopa.eu
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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So where do my charity flights fit in?
No profit motive, but producing great financial and other benefits to people who desperately need them.
Definitely not commercial, and therefore to be sneered at by the commercial side and placed in the lowest category by the ANSP?
Similarly, if someone flies their private aircraft on business and creates wealth, employment and tax revenue from their company by doing so? Still beneath contempt?
Things really aren't that black and white.
No profit motive, but producing great financial and other benefits to people who desperately need them.
Definitely not commercial, and therefore to be sneered at by the commercial side and placed in the lowest category by the ANSP?
Similarly, if someone flies their private aircraft on business and creates wealth, employment and tax revenue from their company by doing so? Still beneath contempt?
Things really aren't that black and white.
You can play around with words as much as you like. I agree, 'things' aren't 'black and white'.
There is some blurring at the edges. But, it ain't called a Commercial Pilot's License for nothing.
If you draw a salary, declare a dividend, hold an AOC, are registered in a pension scheme, get paid leave or recognise a host of other indicators, then you're commercial - in it for gain and your special friends are NATS - and you pay for their services.
There is some blurring at the edges. But, it ain't called a Commercial Pilot's License for nothing.
If you draw a salary, declare a dividend, hold an AOC, are registered in a pension scheme, get paid leave or recognise a host of other indicators, then you're commercial - in it for gain and your special friends are NATS - and you pay for their services.
Avoid imitations
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Capt. K:
Timothy:
Therein lies the rub. We all need access to CAS and to arbitrarily close airspace to GA, unless for exceptional reasons such as protecting national security, is unacceptable.
If what you are doing is motivated towards profit, then it is 'commercial'.
Things really aren't that black and white.
Personally, it wouldn't make any difference if, while flying GA, I was denied access to CAS. At the moment I go around it or under it or, over it if such is possible and it doesn't lead me into additional expense.
An in flight emergency might have me reaching for 121.5 depending on what was at stake.
ShyTorque, your reference to 'national security' provokes the following. Place names have been omitted.
One week or so ago, I returned to the airfield and parked at about 4.30.pm. Someone from the Tower came past and said that the airfield would be closed as from 6.0pm. with no more arrivals or departures after that time. All due, apparently, to the departure of a certain person back to the Land of the Free from Boscombe. No prior notice had been given; no Notam issued.
My question then was: Where would pilots go if they had left their car at the airfield and needed to get home to feed the kids, let the dog out for a pee and perhaps prepare supper. The nearest diversion was half an hours flying time away.
I began to feel quite offended. I wrote to the CO at Boscombe and one week later received a very friendly phone call from a WingCo. It transpired that they, Boscombe, had phoned the airfield and asked whether it would be feasible to close the airfield prematurely and without notice, that it wasn't obligatory but would be helpful.
While waiting for Boscombe's reply, I had checked with other airfields in the vicinity. It was business as usual for them and they hadn't been asked to close early.
I did ask the WingCo. how he would have gone about trying to contact the half a dozen or so farm strips that lie within about a six or seven mile radius of Boscombe !
So, this little episode quite expressively underlines the importance of GA in the scheme of things.
An in flight emergency might have me reaching for 121.5 depending on what was at stake.
ShyTorque, your reference to 'national security' provokes the following. Place names have been omitted.
One week or so ago, I returned to the airfield and parked at about 4.30.pm. Someone from the Tower came past and said that the airfield would be closed as from 6.0pm. with no more arrivals or departures after that time. All due, apparently, to the departure of a certain person back to the Land of the Free from Boscombe. No prior notice had been given; no Notam issued.
My question then was: Where would pilots go if they had left their car at the airfield and needed to get home to feed the kids, let the dog out for a pee and perhaps prepare supper. The nearest diversion was half an hours flying time away.
I began to feel quite offended. I wrote to the CO at Boscombe and one week later received a very friendly phone call from a WingCo. It transpired that they, Boscombe, had phoned the airfield and asked whether it would be feasible to close the airfield prematurely and without notice, that it wasn't obligatory but would be helpful.
While waiting for Boscombe's reply, I had checked with other airfields in the vicinity. It was business as usual for them and they hadn't been asked to close early.
I did ask the WingCo. how he would have gone about trying to contact the half a dozen or so farm strips that lie within about a six or seven mile radius of Boscombe !
So, this little episode quite expressively underlines the importance of GA in the scheme of things.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Personally, it wouldn't make any difference if, while flying GA, I was denied access to CAS. At the moment I go around it or under it or, over it if such is possible and it doesn't lead me into additional expense.
Well done.However, as you have pointed out yourself, not everyone is like you.
Going round airspace does not help if the place you want to go to, or overfly, is in the airspace.
But, it ain't called a Commercial Pilot's License for nothing.
