When do I report 'leaving FL'?
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: London UK
When do I report 'leaving FL'?
A couple of quick questions:
If in the hold, and told to 'report leaving FL80', am I correct in saying that this is met as soon as you have at least a 500fpm ROD? This is obviously different to having LEFT the level, which I believe is 300 feet below.
Can you tell me where this info. is published (on the net if possible). I seem to recall its a PANS-OPS rule, but is it in the AIP or CAP413 (I can't find it in either)
Am I also right in saying that in the London TMA we should use a standard 1000fpm? I know that 500fpm is generally the min. ROD, but is the hold different? At the moment I always use 1000fpm, but have seen other guys using less.
Thanks for your help.
If in the hold, and told to 'report leaving FL80', am I correct in saying that this is met as soon as you have at least a 500fpm ROD? This is obviously different to having LEFT the level, which I believe is 300 feet below.
Can you tell me where this info. is published (on the net if possible). I seem to recall its a PANS-OPS rule, but is it in the AIP or CAP413 (I can't find it in either)
Am I also right in saying that in the London TMA we should use a standard 1000fpm? I know that 500fpm is generally the min. ROD, but is the hold different? At the moment I always use 1000fpm, but have seen other guys using less.
Thanks for your help.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: LONDON
In theory you can tell us you have left the level as soon as you have left it. Some pilots say "leaving" as they readback the new cleared level but we tend to be careful about jumping in with descent for the a/c above.
If we use the mode C we have to wait until we see you are 400' out before we can reallocate that level. You will appreciate that at Heathrow in particular we are often strapped for levels and it saves time to ask you rather than watch your mode C.
We expect 650fpm plus or minus 150 whilst you are in the hold. Once you are below the transition altitude that is no longer mandatory, in order that you can comply with the CDA requirement.
Hope this helps
Point 4
If we use the mode C we have to wait until we see you are 400' out before we can reallocate that level. You will appreciate that at Heathrow in particular we are often strapped for levels and it saves time to ask you rather than watch your mode C.
We expect 650fpm plus or minus 150 whilst you are in the hold. Once you are below the transition altitude that is no longer mandatory, in order that you can comply with the CDA requirement.
Hope this helps
Point 4
Last edited by 120.4; 24th May 2002 at 20:23.
Joined: May 2001
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From: A small village just a wee way away
Just by way of a footnote...
Never report "leaving" unless that is asked for. i.e, say "Left" or "vacated" as in, we have "Left/vacated" the level. To report "Leaving FL100" DOES NOT mean that you have left that level. It can mean, we are stting the a/c up for the descent/climb etc, but are actually still sitting at it! Be specific! Alas, some pilots do report leaving a level and then take another 20secs-2mins to actually vacate the level.
Never report "leaving" unless that is asked for. i.e, say "Left" or "vacated" as in, we have "Left/vacated" the level. To report "Leaving FL100" DOES NOT mean that you have left that level. It can mean, we are stting the a/c up for the descent/climb etc, but are actually still sitting at it! Be specific! Alas, some pilots do report leaving a level and then take another 20secs-2mins to actually vacate the level.
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: London
I once had traffic in the Lambourne hold reporting leaving FL90 for FL80. My next transmission was to clear traffic above (although at the opposite end of the hold) to FL90. Totally legal.
A minute later, when my 'scan' returned to the Lambourne hold - two aircraft, both at FL90 chasing eachother around the pattern.
One was running into LAM and the other outbound from LAM due south of the first by about 3.1 miles!
Lucky that!
AI
A minute later, when my 'scan' returned to the Lambourne hold - two aircraft, both at FL90 chasing eachother around the pattern.
One was running into LAM and the other outbound from LAM due south of the first by about 3.1 miles!
Lucky that!
AI
stings like a bee
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Buckinghamshire England
BmPilot21 - The definition of having left an assigned level is when the aircraft`s altimeter indicates that the aircraft has actually departed from that level and is maintaining a positive rate of climb or descent in accordance with published procedures.
I take published procedures to refer to the requirement to inform ATC if the rate of climb or descent is or will be less than 500fpm when above the Transition Altitude.
I would echo Standard Speed`s warning because CAP 413 (RTF Manual ) is rather vague on this matter. It seems to imply that the words "leaving" and "left" have the same meaning which clearly they do not.
I would like the phraseology to be amended along the lines of;
ATC- "XXX descend flight level 100 report flight level 110 vacated."
I take published procedures to refer to the requirement to inform ATC if the rate of climb or descent is or will be less than 500fpm when above the Transition Altitude.
I would echo Standard Speed`s warning because CAP 413 (RTF Manual ) is rather vague on this matter. It seems to imply that the words "leaving" and "left" have the same meaning which clearly they do not.
I would like the phraseology to be amended along the lines of;
ATC- "XXX descend flight level 100 report flight level 110 vacated."
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: London UK
I thought that was the point of standard RODs in the hold - If one a/c reports leaving a level, at say 500fpm, then the next a/c can be cleared to that level, as they will obviously maintain separation.
As you say, leaving and left have very different meanings. Left is once you have 500fpm, AND 300 feet below the level, whereas leaving just means you have a minimum ROD leaving the level (I believe 500fpm, but I would like to find where that's actually written down.
120.4 - I haven't heard of 650fpm +/- 150 before. Is that written down anywhere? I was taught by our training Captains to use a standard 1000fpm whilst inbound to the hold, and once in the hold. This is low enough to prevent TCAS TAs, is acceptable to passenger comfort, but lhigh enough to ensure prompt vacation of the previous level. It was my IR instructor who told me the definition of 'Leaving' a level, as oppose to 'left'.
As you say, leaving and left have very different meanings. Left is once you have 500fpm, AND 300 feet below the level, whereas leaving just means you have a minimum ROD leaving the level (I believe 500fpm, but I would like to find where that's actually written down.
120.4 - I haven't heard of 650fpm +/- 150 before. Is that written down anywhere? I was taught by our training Captains to use a standard 1000fpm whilst inbound to the hold, and once in the hold. This is low enough to prevent TCAS TAs, is acceptable to passenger comfort, but lhigh enough to ensure prompt vacation of the previous level. It was my IR instructor who told me the definition of 'Leaving' a level, as oppose to 'left'.
Joined: May 2002
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From: uk
Don't forget that when you are in the hold (with a lot of other aircraft usually!) that your modes a and c could be unreadable and therefore we rely on accurate reports from pilots in order to descend in the hold.
As an adjoiner to this sometimes we rely on a runway vacated report for one reason or another (ie: can't see runway, surface radar broken etc) in order to clear an aircraft to land or depart, you're vacated when your tail is passed the cat1 hold not when you've turned the nose wheel off the centre line!
As an adjoiner to this sometimes we rely on a runway vacated report for one reason or another (ie: can't see runway, surface radar broken etc) in order to clear an aircraft to land or depart, you're vacated when your tail is passed the cat1 hold not when you've turned the nose wheel off the centre line!
