Swanwick problems ?
Thread Starter
Swanwick problems ?
Just heard on local radio about problems with Swanwick ATCO's not being able to read screen information, misreading heights and even sending aircraft into wrong zones. Even mistaking Cardiff for Glasgow. Please tell me this is wrong and just another media classic.
Hmm, sounds like a mis-information Pfopar. Maybe but would like to hear from those ACTUALLY IN THE KNOW.
Hmm, sounds like a mis-information Pfopar. Maybe but would like to hear from those ACTUALLY IN THE KNOW.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: asia
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The article is based on actual controller reports submitted by ATCOs working at Swanwick. So you'll have to decide whether you believe the ATCOs or whether you think the paper in question (Computer Weekly) has its knickers in a twist.
Ah...Moderator, this is Thread XXX....request permission to transfer to ATC Issues forum...
Ah...Moderator, this is Thread XXX....request permission to transfer to ATC Issues forum...
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the Tearooms of Mars
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This was one of the first complaints from the controllers, the small font size on the screen. Apparently it is Arial Narrow 8pt or something similar. Steely eyed aces with eyes like razors have no problem, but after a while even the best sighted people can have problems. It is literally a 'health and safety' issue since it deals with conditions in the workplace in the same way as office lighting and comfortable seating.
Is it a Flight Safety issue? Well it clearly doesn't help.
Is it a Flight Safety issue? Well it clearly doesn't help.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arial Narrow 8pt!!!
I hope the ATCOs that have to work with this have good LOL insurance because they'll be a lot of claims on poor eyesight.
I find it hard to believe in this day and age that a so called responsible company can subject it's workers to this ...and
even more incredible that the workers have so far let them get away with it
I hope the ATCOs that have to work with this have good LOL insurance because they'll be a lot of claims on poor eyesight.
I find it hard to believe in this day and age that a so called responsible company can subject it's workers to this ...and
even more incredible that the workers have so far let them get away with it
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've heard that Maastricht has the same problem with their new ODS which they hope to introduce in November. It's a known problem but it looks unlikely to be rectified prior to the kick-off.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An air traffic controller sent a Glasgow plane to Cardiff after misreading small computer text at the new control centre at Swanwick in Hampshire, it has been reported.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No... just relax... it's all nonsense. How do I know? Because in my trusty newspaper today it says:
"Last night NATS, the air traffic controllers' union Prospect and the CAA denied that the problems posed a safety risk."
Prospect said the problems were not safety related..
So now we known...
"Last night NATS, the air traffic controllers' union Prospect and the CAA denied that the problems posed a safety risk."
Prospect said the problems were not safety related..
So now we known...
Join Date: May 2002
Location: SW Scotland
Age: 40
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the reason for the mistake was that the airport codes are displayed using the 4 letter system. The controller mixed up EGPF (Glasgow) with EGFF (Cardiff). Apparently some other incidents involved a controller believing a plane was at FL300 when it was at FL360 and caused him to fly into the wrong airspace.
All i have read is the bbc article, but my copy of Computer Weekly should be coming through the postbox within the next hour so ill get the full story...
All i have read is the bbc article, but my copy of Computer Weekly should be coming through the postbox within the next hour so ill get the full story...
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am a little confused about what consitutes "safety related". I use this equipment and would concur with the problems that have been discussed. Accidents are caused by a series of things coming together at the same time. If one of the things is related to ATC personnel puting into the computer, wrong level, routing, dest, etc and an accident happens, then is it not safety related?
There was a thread concerning this EXACT issue before Swanwick opened.
Before Swanwick opened, Controllers had complained bitterly about the font sizes, only to be completely ignored by Management because of the need to save political face and get Swanwick up and running on time (on time, but 6 years late remember !!!!)
In fact, our wonderful "management" had stated, quite openly, that the equipment was not subject to HSE regulations !!!!!!
So now - as always - the truth will out. And yes, I do believe there is a safety issue here.
I hope you pilots continue to read this thread now that it's in the ATC forum.......we NEED you to know just what goes on !!
Before Swanwick opened, Controllers had complained bitterly about the font sizes, only to be completely ignored by Management because of the need to save political face and get Swanwick up and running on time (on time, but 6 years late remember !!!!)
In fact, our wonderful "management" had stated, quite openly, that the equipment was not subject to HSE regulations !!!!!!
So now - as always - the truth will out. And yes, I do believe there is a safety issue here.
I hope you pilots continue to read this thread now that it's in the ATC forum.......we NEED you to know just what goes on !!
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
twisted engine .. You'll have to untwist on this one. Each aircraft return has a Track Data Block (TDB) associated with it on the radar screens. One of the vital pieces of information the radar controller always displays is the aircraft intention code(destination) in the TDB. Misreading FF for PF would mean the radar controller was preparing to route the aircraft a completely different way. If they made assumptions about climb and descent of other aircraft was based on the expected track of West rather than the actual track of North there could be a serious problem.
This does affect both Planner and Tactical (radar) screens so what the heck does Ian Findlay know about it ?
Moderator I think this belongs in the general pilots area because they should be aware of the problems here. They could just be the one directly affected.
This does affect both Planner and Tactical (radar) screens so what the heck does Ian Findlay know about it ?
Moderator I think this belongs in the general pilots area because they should be aware of the problems here. They could just be the one directly affected.
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh My GOD!! Don't tell me there are problems with font sizes at Swanwick!!!!!!!! I hope that place isn't operational yet, nor handling 110% of LATCC TSF!!
Good Grief!
There is a protyping session tomorrow (Friday) for new Fonts, so here's hoping there's some consensus amongst controllers on what they like.
Good Grief!
There is a protyping session tomorrow (Friday) for new Fonts, so here's hoping there's some consensus amongst controllers on what they like.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
110% of LATCC TSF? Errr .. not exactly...
The initial TSFs at NERC were largely LESS than those at LATCC. The 110% you mention is relative to those rates, not the LATCC ones.
E.G. SFD TSF at LATCC 50/60 (subject to certain conditions). S18 TSF at NERC 48/60... no explanation, except perhaps giving room for "artificial" rises to spin into "good" news.
Further... LATCC used staff a lot more efficiently than Swanwick EVER will.
Rgds BEX
The initial TSFs at NERC were largely LESS than those at LATCC. The 110% you mention is relative to those rates, not the LATCC ones.
E.G. SFD TSF at LATCC 50/60 (subject to certain conditions). S18 TSF at NERC 48/60... no explanation, except perhaps giving room for "artificial" rises to spin into "good" news.
Further... LATCC used staff a lot more efficiently than Swanwick EVER will.
Rgds BEX
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm in the know.
The trouble is that the screens at Swanwick were designed to be read from a distance of 50cm. Ergonomic design of the console dictates that it is impossible to sit any closer than 90cm, without constantly leaning forward and giving yourself an achy back.
The reason for the discrepancy stems from the fact the Swanwick was designed to be a paper stripless environment, however, due to timescales paper strips are still used and the workbench had to be made larger to accomodate the strip boards. This was done with no thought about the increased distance from ATCO to screen.
Just one of the many things that only came to light too late
The trouble is that the screens at Swanwick were designed to be read from a distance of 50cm. Ergonomic design of the console dictates that it is impossible to sit any closer than 90cm, without constantly leaning forward and giving yourself an achy back.
The reason for the discrepancy stems from the fact the Swanwick was designed to be a paper stripless environment, however, due to timescales paper strips are still used and the workbench had to be made larger to accomodate the strip boards. This was done with no thought about the increased distance from ATCO to screen.
Just one of the many things that only came to light too late
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm... Very interesting.
Question. If I was supposed to be sitting closer to the tube, where were my legs and feet supposed to go? There isn't much room now and I'm sitting further away. A point highlighted in the HSE report.
Rgds BEX
Question. If I was supposed to be sitting closer to the tube, where were my legs and feet supposed to go? There isn't much room now and I'm sitting further away. A point highlighted in the HSE report.
Rgds BEX
Last edited by BEXIL160; 23rd May 2002 at 18:24.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A further point comes to mind ref the difficult to see fonts, and the safety implications.
Signal 109 was "difficult to see", but deemed by management not to be an urgent safety problem.
Anybody spot the parallels here? Remember NATS management have KNOWN all about the font problem for a long time and deemed it not to be a problem, just as Railtrack knew all about signal 109 for a long time.
Think about it.
Rgds
BEX
Signal 109 was "difficult to see", but deemed by management not to be an urgent safety problem.
Anybody spot the parallels here? Remember NATS management have KNOWN all about the font problem for a long time and deemed it not to be a problem, just as Railtrack knew all about signal 109 for a long time.
Think about it.
Rgds
BEX