Reporting of Runway state

[southern duel]

A question for you ATC guys.
What is the requirement of reporting the runway state to flight crew of damp/damp/damp or dry/damp/wet etc . I know its in Mats part I but the larger airports ( Heathrow/Gatwick etc) do not report it unless in snow conditions. Is this because the length of the runway so there is no significant flight performance restrictions ?
It seems pointless in the summer when a passing shower has passed through because within 5 minutes a damp runway will be dry again.

your thoughts please

[Plain Crazy]

Very good question. I've worked at airports big and small, the small ones are very particular about reporting it yet, as you say, Heathrow etc never seem to bother, despite the MATS pt 1 requirement to do so. I always suspected it was more to do with the difficulty of getting the runway inspected regularly than anything else...but like most things the regulator seems to turn a blind eye because it's too difficult.

[Burnie5204]

From what I understand places like Heathrow have to meticulously plan their inspections hours in advance as ATC need to create traffic gaps. This makes it much, much harder to get the runway inspected for a state change.

Smaller airports have sufficient spare capacity for aircraft movements that it is much easier to get a vehicle on regularly and after state changes.

[055166k]

southern duel

If you consider that there may be a safety implication as a result of not receiving essential or relevant surface condition information then you could put a comment in your voyage report....or action through Chief pilot...or similar. If such conditions prevail that you think you need information that is being withheld....ask the controller and note down the reply; only use the R/T for operational messages [don't get involved in ping-pong chit chat] any follow up can be done by telephone from the ground.

[southern duel]

Heathrow

Heathrow do plan their inspections in advance and on a sterile runway however even during the time the inspections were done on/off (great fun) between aircraft there was no passing of the runway state.

Keep the replies coming folks

[Scrotchidson]

During my time at EGLL I don't recall ever putting the Runway state on the ATIS and only passing on state reports over R/T when reported by another pilot.

I can't speak for the times when you could inspect the runway in-between arrivals/departures but I assume now that you have to book a gap of up to 15nm in arrivals for a standard inspection it would be impossible to run efficiently if you needed to conduct an inspection every time the weather changed to update the Runway state.

I guess it's easier to ask for Pilot reports as you guys can give live up to date state reports and it would be then quicker to pass onto other aircraft over R/T.

It's a good question!

[Fenders]

The runway state is always reported on the ATIS.
During routine runway inspections the surface state is reported to ATC.
This information is then broadcast on the ATIS. If the surface state is not reported on the ATIS it can then be assumed that the runway state is dry x 3.

[055166k]

southern duel

There will be bits of the answer all over the place; you have quoted MATS part 1 already....but there will also be MATS part 2 [local ATC instructions] but I can't reproduce them here due intellectual rights. There is a sort of requirement in CAP 168 Licensing of Aerodromes; Chapter 10 1.4 lists information, the details of which should always be available.......of course "being available" is not much use if there is no information delivery procedure in force. The Airport operator will also have manuals and procedures to promulgate information. Do not immediately point the finger at ATC. All ATC practices and procedures come under the watchful eye of the "regulator"...the CAA....nothing is done or not done without their approval.

[vulcanised]

Always makes me smile when an ATCO says to pilot departing in pouring rain "runway wet,wet, wet."

[reportyourlevel]

I've had pilots laugh at me on the RTF when I've said "wet wet wet" during a rain shower. What people often forget is that there are two states that are wetter then "wet": water patches and flooded. So what we're doing by saying "wet wet wet" is confirming that it isn't any worse than that.

[southern duel]

Wasn't pointing the finger just curious to know why do some airports do report it and some do not ! and those that do report it in different ways.

No need to be defensive 055165k

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The only way we advised crews back in the dark days was informally - "Runway is wet but no standing water", etc. Formal information about braking action was only given following Mu meter runs in icy conditions.

[southern duel]

Thanks HD. I think there a few quite a few anomalies out there around the patch. Having worked at Heathrow for 24 years up to 2012 and now involved in Regional airports its an interesting discussion

[reportyourlevel]

It's always interesting to see how other places work - it's too easy to think that no-one else has the same problems that we do and often they have a different solution, which may or may not work for our own unit.

We (UK, regional) have to have an inspection before opening, again at first light and then again before nightfall plus at set intervals during precipitation or low vis ops. Generally this fits around movements, but we don't sterilise the runway. Runway state has to go on the ATIS and can't be changed without an official report from Aerodrome Ops.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

southern duel.. OK. I guess we must have met, either eyeball or on the R/T. I was there 1972-1993. Used to love the on-off inspections!

[southern duel]

HD I started 1990 and became an ODM ( those were the days) in 2001 then left in 2012. I remember one particular controller asking aircraft to call 400ft which would have been our queue to vacate. Lots of trust in those days, sadly all disappeared over the years. I was also the very last person to do an inspection of 05 !! a wet and windy afternoon . great fun especially as they were departing 09R and there was two different frequencies even though the runways crossed at block 85

[Burnie5204]

reportyourlevel,

You have it easy! :-p

Over here (another UK regional) we have a minimum of once every 2 hours (but normally ends up between 1 and 1.5 hourly depending on the Duty Wildlife controllers preference), after traffic gaps longer than 20 minutes (and at dawn/dusk its after traffic gaps longer than 5 minutes) and ASAP after a state change to a wetter condition

And we have to keep that up H24/D7.

Done between movements (again no sterile runway but we aim for gaps which effectively give us a sterile runway), surface state reported to ATC on vacating and added to ATIS. State can only be changed on ATIS following Air Ops, ATC or RFFS inspections but if it starts pelting it down and we dont have time to inspect before next movement "Unofficial observation from the tower, runway wet, wet, wet" can sometimes be heard.

[almost professional]

Burnie-you forgot the when the bloody minded TWR controller tells you to!
As for the Mu meter/ grip tester - so few conditions now that you can use and pass info on that it's become all but redundant

[Burnie5204]

Ah yes, not got any AN-124s coming in tomorrow do we...