European Cup Final
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Actually the Tango routes don't add that much to the distance, hence the reason there are several flights each day from Scotland that go that way anyway.
As for the loss of revenue, that has been happening every day anyway with the NERC route restrictions taking trans-atlantic flights out of Scottish and into Irish airspace, or out of London and into France.
It doesn't take a computer shut down to lose revenue.
As for the loss of revenue, that has been happening every day anyway with the NERC route restrictions taking trans-atlantic flights out of Scottish and into Irish airspace, or out of London and into France.
It doesn't take a computer shut down to lose revenue.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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NERC Dweller...
DDC not required every 28 days?
Oh? I stand corrected, thank you. I was under the impression that these would be required as per the AIRAC cycle.
So when DO we need to shut the whole ops room down and run away into the TDU next door... I mean DD&C?
I may have confused matters here. SWIMM doesn't neccesarily mean we're doing the DD&C. We can stay in the normal ops room for SWIMM, but not for DD&C.
Brilliant system innit?
Rgds BEX
DDC not required every 28 days?
Oh? I stand corrected, thank you. I was under the impression that these would be required as per the AIRAC cycle.
So when DO we need to shut the whole ops room down and run away into the TDU next door... I mean DD&C?
I may have confused matters here. SWIMM doesn't neccesarily mean we're doing the DD&C. We can stay in the normal ops room for SWIMM, but not for DD&C.
Brilliant system innit?
Rgds BEX
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Wetfeet, I agree, but when the pips are squeeking and economies are being made, it gives a bad impression to staff and customers.
Just seems like a windfall opportunity to get some much-needed cash is being thrown away.
Just seems like a windfall opportunity to get some much-needed cash is being thrown away.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Lack of awareness or respect that there is life outside NERC and One Kemble Street seems to dominate NATS thinking these days.
If it's not filling the pages of "NATS Newds" with self-absorbed OKS waffle and interviews with company accountants, then it's continuing with planned shutdowns when operational issues and wiser heads should prevail.
But then again what would ATCOs know about it.
If it's not filling the pages of "NATS Newds" with self-absorbed OKS waffle and interviews with company accountants, then it's continuing with planned shutdowns when operational issues and wiser heads should prevail.
But then again what would ATCOs know about it.
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BEXIL - I think we are confusing each other 
DD&C - Deploy, Download and Cutover. Running into the TDU in other words. This is required at LACC when either the NERC Adaptation or software needs to be changed. So it would be on the AIRAC cycle - if the AIRAC contained anything that affected NERC. I don't believe there are any AIRAC changes in July or August so no need for a DDC.
SWIMM - Swanwick in Manual Mode. NAS is unavailable, but you stay in the OPS. At least with NERC you have several hours worth of flight data available in the SFS
Is this how you understand things?
DD&C - Deploy, Download and Cutover. Running into the TDU in other words. This is required at LACC when either the NERC Adaptation or software needs to be changed. So it would be on the AIRAC cycle - if the AIRAC contained anything that affected NERC. I don't believe there are any AIRAC changes in July or August so no need for a DDC.
SWIMM - Swanwick in Manual Mode. NAS is unavailable, but you stay in the OPS. At least with NERC you have several hours worth of flight data available in the SFS
Is this how you understand things?
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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Another factor is that MNPS Approval and the carraige of HF radio are required for the Tango Routes.
Not sure how many operating the charters will have that level of equipment fit.
Not sure how many operating the charters will have that level of equipment fit.
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MNPS approval is only required if operating above F280 so if no approval is held then they can go below that or above F410.
Having seen the list of proposed flights, many are operated by airlines that already use the Tango routes, others are B747's and Airbuses etc so are likely to have MNPS and even RVSM approval. The only ones that might be questionnable are the 40 or so exec jets.
The Tango routes are not compulsory. If the airlines don't want to use them they don't have to, They are being recommended because the airports need the flights off asap as they can't handle all those aeroplanes and passengers milling around. The Tango routes are being offered to get the planes off and to avoid the delays caused by the NERC reduced capacity.
And don't forget, the Tango routes are available 24/7. They are normally used to avoid delays in France etc but I believe their use has increased since NERC went on line. If the routes weren't being offered on 15th then my guess is the airlines would refile for the Tangos as soon as they picked up their delays. By bringing these routes to their attention now we are just preventing refiling and associated confusion.
However, as suggested, delaying the NERC shutdown, or whatever it is, would be the best, and logical, solution to all this.
Having seen the list of proposed flights, many are operated by airlines that already use the Tango routes, others are B747's and Airbuses etc so are likely to have MNPS and even RVSM approval. The only ones that might be questionnable are the 40 or so exec jets.
The Tango routes are not compulsory. If the airlines don't want to use them they don't have to, They are being recommended because the airports need the flights off asap as they can't handle all those aeroplanes and passengers milling around. The Tango routes are being offered to get the planes off and to avoid the delays caused by the NERC reduced capacity.
And don't forget, the Tango routes are available 24/7. They are normally used to avoid delays in France etc but I believe their use has increased since NERC went on line. If the routes weren't being offered on 15th then my guess is the airlines would refile for the Tangos as soon as they picked up their delays. By bringing these routes to their attention now we are just preventing refiling and associated confusion.
However, as suggested, delaying the NERC shutdown, or whatever it is, would be the best, and logical, solution to all this.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Highspeed the reply wasn't sarcastic just a wee bit of Scottish humour.
The forecast is looking like possible wet and SW wind. A busy westbound Oceanic day ?
From another newsgroup the Edinburgh traffic on the 15th / 16th looks pretty substantial. Considering they and Prestwick are expecting less than Glasgow I would say the whole period is going to be interesting ....
Flight Code Aircraft Arrive/Depart To/From
ELD111/112 D11 0900/0030 16th MAD/MAD
YW5460 CRJ 0905/NS DNR/DNR
GCR338/339 72S 0930/0300 16th MAD/MAD
IB5728/5525 320 0935/1025 MAD/MAD
IB5722/5537 320 0955/1045 MAD/MAD
EAF4062/4063 742 1030/0205 16th MAD/MAD
MON8041/8040 AB6 1040/0155 16th MAD/MAD
ELD113/114 D11 1045/0001 16th MAD/MAD
DE9152 B763 1050/NS CGN/DNR
MON8053/8052 AB6 1055/0210 16th MAD/MAD
TRA8601/8602 B738 1045/0115 16th MAD/MAD
IB5734/5533 320 1100/1200 MAD/MAD
EEX2151 B1900 1120/NS CGN/CGN
AEY1580/1581 D1C 1140/0630 MAD/MAD
YSS9687/9688 L15 1150/0230 16th MAD/MAD
SWL2761/2762 742 1215/0315 16th MAD/MAD
SWL2763/2764 742 1245/0315 16th MAD/MAD
MMZ3331/3332 L15 1405/0345 16th MAD/MAD
IB5790/5527 320 1415/1515 MAD/MAD
IB5750/5577 M87 1525/1615 MAD/MAD
IB5738/5739 320 1625/0125 16th MAD/MAD
IB5748/5719 340 1630/0130 16th MAD/MAD
IB5786/5787 340 1640/0140 16th MAD/MAD
IB5778/5791 320 1645/0445 16th MAD/MAD
Thurs 16th May
Flight Code Aircraft Arrive/Depart To/From
IB5574/5757 320 0015/0315 MAD/MAD
IB5532/5735 320 0110/0210 MAD/MAD
IB5522/5711 320 0205/0305 MAD/MAD
IB5528/5761 M87 0210/0310 MAD/MAD
IB5502/5797 320 0300/0500 MAD/MAD
CRJ - Canadair Regional Jet
D11, D1C= DC10
AB6 = A300-600
M87 = MD87
L15 = L1011-500
763 = 767-300
320 = A320
340 = A340
72S = 727
742 = 747-200
The forecast is looking like possible wet and SW wind. A busy westbound Oceanic day ?
From another newsgroup the Edinburgh traffic on the 15th / 16th looks pretty substantial. Considering they and Prestwick are expecting less than Glasgow I would say the whole period is going to be interesting ....
Flight Code Aircraft Arrive/Depart To/From
ELD111/112 D11 0900/0030 16th MAD/MAD
YW5460 CRJ 0905/NS DNR/DNR
GCR338/339 72S 0930/0300 16th MAD/MAD
IB5728/5525 320 0935/1025 MAD/MAD
IB5722/5537 320 0955/1045 MAD/MAD
EAF4062/4063 742 1030/0205 16th MAD/MAD
MON8041/8040 AB6 1040/0155 16th MAD/MAD
ELD113/114 D11 1045/0001 16th MAD/MAD
DE9152 B763 1050/NS CGN/DNR
MON8053/8052 AB6 1055/0210 16th MAD/MAD
TRA8601/8602 B738 1045/0115 16th MAD/MAD
IB5734/5533 320 1100/1200 MAD/MAD
EEX2151 B1900 1120/NS CGN/CGN
AEY1580/1581 D1C 1140/0630 MAD/MAD
YSS9687/9688 L15 1150/0230 16th MAD/MAD
SWL2761/2762 742 1215/0315 16th MAD/MAD
SWL2763/2764 742 1245/0315 16th MAD/MAD
MMZ3331/3332 L15 1405/0345 16th MAD/MAD
IB5790/5527 320 1415/1515 MAD/MAD
IB5750/5577 M87 1525/1615 MAD/MAD
IB5738/5739 320 1625/0125 16th MAD/MAD
IB5748/5719 340 1630/0130 16th MAD/MAD
IB5786/5787 340 1640/0140 16th MAD/MAD
IB5778/5791 320 1645/0445 16th MAD/MAD
Thurs 16th May
Flight Code Aircraft Arrive/Depart To/From
IB5574/5757 320 0015/0315 MAD/MAD
IB5532/5735 320 0110/0210 MAD/MAD
IB5522/5711 320 0205/0305 MAD/MAD
IB5528/5761 M87 0210/0310 MAD/MAD
IB5502/5797 320 0300/0500 MAD/MAD
CRJ - Canadair Regional Jet
D11, D1C= DC10
AB6 = A300-600
M87 = MD87
L15 = L1011-500
763 = 767-300
320 = A320
340 = A340
72S = 727
742 = 747-200
Join Date: Oct 1999
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From reading this and the replies to my post in the NATS forum on the same subject, I am glad to hear that those of us at the coal face agree we should put the customer first and do our own "housekeeping" at a more sensible time.
I hope Mr Everitt knows what is planned for Wednesday night, and in the event that several thousand soccer fans and UEFA officials get seriously delayed going home from this football showcase event, has an answer as to why we could not have been "the world leaders in Air Traffic Management" on this occasion !
I hope Mr Everitt knows what is planned for Wednesday night, and in the event that several thousand soccer fans and UEFA officials get seriously delayed going home from this football showcase event, has an answer as to why we could not have been "the world leaders in Air Traffic Management" on this occasion !
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You guys up at EGPX/EGPK - just make sure the last Ryanair flight on Tuesday gets in okay. I'm coming up for the match!
I was at PF for the last one - days off fortunately. Game was crap - George Square after brill! Was stuck in a traffuc jam at 2am the next morning!
Anyone going to the Boswell Hotel for a pre match swally?
I was at PF for the last one - days off fortunately. Game was crap - George Square after brill! Was stuck in a traffuc jam at 2am the next morning!
Anyone going to the Boswell Hotel for a pre match swally?
My enquiries suggest that there are major airspace changes within Brest airspace (which abuts a major part of NERC airspace) being introduced at this AIRAC date, so it would seem that, on this occasion, NERC management MAY be right in refusing to allow a postponement of the shutdown.
However, how they are going to convey this message in a manner that calms several thousand inebriated and jubilant/suicidal football fans remains to be seen!
I understand that the issue is already causing grave concern to Strathclyde Police, amongst others.
However, how they are going to convey this message in a manner that calms several thousand inebriated and jubilant/suicidal football fans remains to be seen!
I understand that the issue is already causing grave concern to Strathclyde Police, amongst others.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Heard a rumour this afternoon that the NAS shutdown has been postponed.
Maybe e-mailing a link to this thread to Mr Everitt wasn't such a bad idea after all.............
Maybe e-mailing a link to this thread to Mr Everitt wasn't such a bad idea after all.............
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Big meeting today between LACC, ScACC and MACC. Routes and MDIs agreed - some avoiding LKS/NSEA bandbox etcetera. Tango routes will be used a lot. S29 at MACC will open til 0300 so I'm told!