Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > ATC Issues
Reload this Page >

Refuse clearance question

ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Refuse clearance question

Old 26th Sep 2013, 18:46
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 55
Posts: 34
Refuse clearance question

Tried the search tool, but came up empty.

Is there any rules or guidance on when, or if, ATC can refuse a request for landing clearance?

Thanks in advance.
underfire is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2013, 18:53
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 76
Posts: 8,275
Well, in real life it doesn't happen like that. An aircraft approaching an airfield will be given instructions regarding runway in use, etc. When the pilot reports on final approach he will be given a landing clearance. If the runway is obstructed, or for other reasons preventinga landing, the pilot will be instructed to go-around for a further approach.

Maybe you are thinking of an airfield where prior permission must be obtained before arrival. This maybe issued by the airfield operator or by ATC. This will have been sorted before the aircraft makes an approach and then whether it lands will be up to the controller based on other traffic.

HTH
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2013, 01:57
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 55
Posts: 34
When the pilot reports on final approach he will be given a landing clearance.
Runway issues aside.

What if the aircraft and/or pilot are not in compliance?

If the aircraft is 2nm left of centerline, would you still give clearance? If you provide guidance, and still non-compliance, what are the remedies for non-compliance?

Perhaps if you had an A380 request, and the runways cannot handle an A380?

Last edited by underfire; 27th Sep 2013 at 01:59.
underfire is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2013, 02:05
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 67
Posts: 1,129
underfire you sound like an idiot mate.

the system is well organised and large aircraft never fly to a destination without full knowledge of the runway capabilities at the destination.

in australia the publication is called ERSA, en-route supplement australia and additionally there is the RDS, runway and distance supplement.

in those publications are full details of conditions at all runways used by commercial aircraft. there are similar publications world wide.

If the aircraft is 2nm left of centerline
where do you come up with this nonsense? microsoft flight sim??
dubbleyew eight is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2013, 06:43
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 76
Posts: 8,275
<<What if the aircraft and/or pilot are not in compliance?>>

I don't understand that question; can you explain further please?
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2013, 07:26
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 169
It's not ATC's job to decide if you're going to get the approach in or not. That's why you're qualified to fly the plane. It's assumed that you're not going to try and land 2nm left of the centreline...
kharmael is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2013, 10:15
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,960
Originally Posted by underfire View Post
When the pilot reports on final approach he will be given a landing clearance.
Runway issues aside.

What if the aircraft and/or pilot are not in compliance?

If the aircraft is 2nm left of centerline, would you still give clearance? If you provide guidance, and still non-compliance, what are the remedies for non-compliance?

Perhaps if you had an A380 request, and the runways cannot handle an A380?

...I think he works in the legal department...

Last edited by Hempy; 27th Sep 2013 at 10:17.
Hempy is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2013, 07:01
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 723
Incident: Flightline MD83 at Dublin on Aug 16th 2007, mistook hotel roof lights for approach lights

Only 1.5 miles left I grant you, but alas it has happened in the real world outside MS Flight Sim and very nearly a huge mess.
boredcounter is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2013, 09:10
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: London
Posts: 307
Underfire, your question looks like you have a different idea of what ATC is for. ATC is not policing / looking for "compliance", etc., but its role is to organize the traffic flow - basically get all aircraft where they needs to be while maintaining separation.

A landing clearance is not a "permission" that can be withheld by some random whim, but simply a procedure that ensures that no aircraft lands on a runway that is still occupied. Of course for that to work, pilots have to follow ATC instructions.

Now clearly, ATC can and will speak up if they see something unsafe happening (in your example, with an aircraft way off the normal approach path, this could be anything from providing information to instructing the A/C to go around).

There is only one area I am aware of where ATC routinely is "policing" the rules, which is the "approach ban". When visibility is below the landing minima at the airfield, ATC will not give a landing clearance.
Cobalt is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2013, 09:39
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 73
Posts: 798
I experienced something similar once.
In the late 1970s, while I was maintaining comms & nav aids at Taif airport (among others) there was an Islamic Heads of State conference. This involved closing the main Jeddah to Riyadh highway where it passed the airport.
I was sitting sipping tea and having a fag with the local controller when the Sudanese president's flight called up to inform Taif that the president wanted a sight seeing tour around the Jeddah area before heading for Taif.
Eventually, he showed up in the area and was given clearance to land on runway 25.
When the pilot reported established on the approach, the controller looked out of the window. "Kelvin, I can't see him. Can you?"
No.
He called the flight and asked for confirmation and was given an assurance the flight was indeed on approach to the runway. Oh no he wasn't! After searching the sky to the east, I happened to turn slightly in my seat.
The flight was established on approach all right. On approach to the main Riyadh road, about .75 of a mile south of the runway!
KelvinD is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2013, 10:00
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,160
different folks different strokes

In many countries ATC will refuce a clearance for anything, at any time for any reason.
Certain Moscow Airport: TMA closed, so no engine start: Putin is THINKING about going flying.
Another Certain Moscow Airport: if ATC think youa re off the centre line or not on the GS they WILL INSTRUCT a GA.
Certain African Airports: NO
Certain Smaller French Airports: NON
Certain American Presidents barber Shop: NO

the list goes on.

As to lining up on the main road, it was smoother, and less bendy than the runway..

glf

Last edited by Gulfstreamaviator; 28th Sep 2013 at 10:03.
Gulfstreamaviator is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2013, 22:22
  #12 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 55
Posts: 34
lookingforajob
c - if the person who owns the runway says no (I'm including a runway that is closed for snow clearance in this one).
Is there any ICAO guidance or backing on this? (ie paramaters for saying no)

Including if they say no, the consequences/remedy.

This is a legit question, so UU8 well you can go and yourself.
underfire is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2013, 04:38
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 99
US FAA guidance (JO 7110.65U):
3−10−8. WITHHOLDING LANDING
CLEARANCE
Do not withhold a landing clearance indefinitely even
though it appears a violation of Title 14 of the Code
of Federal Regulations has been committed. The
apparent violation might be the result of an
emergency situation. In any event, assist the pilot to
the extent possible.
KKoran is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2013, 17:28
  #14 (permalink)  

More than just an ATCO
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 71
Posts: 1,768
Refuse clearance question
are the binmen on strike again?
Lon More is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2013, 15:24
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 76
Posts: 8,275
Lon... Surely "Les Binmen"?
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2013, 19:19
  #16 (permalink)  

More than just an ATCO
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 71
Posts: 1,768
"Les Binmen" wasn't he on D Watch at LATCC?
Lon More is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.