Asiana Crash
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Asiana Crash
Hey all. I am an ATCO at San Francisco airport. I was fortunate not to be working the day of the accident. But I do want to give a huge shout out to those who were working. My coworkers did a great job handling the situation and they deserve all the props for their actions. Everyone is doing well and I am proud of how both our union and local management have come together to ensure everyone involved is taken care of.
Personally, I hope none of you have to see something like that. However, having to work with the wreckage there while they cleaned it up reminded me how serious our job really is. It is always just another day when nothing bad happens but when something like that happens, you realize how important your role becomes. My advice would be to never get complacent! Even on clear, beautiful, VFR days with no wind -- anything can happen.
Personally, I hope none of you have to see something like that. However, having to work with the wreckage there while they cleaned it up reminded me how serious our job really is. It is always just another day when nothing bad happens but when something like that happens, you realize how important your role becomes. My advice would be to never get complacent! Even on clear, beautiful, VFR days with no wind -- anything can happen.
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Posted earlier on this forum:
Anyone from SFO help please? I see from the Asiana thread that there is as 'advisory' of 1900 at DME 6 (the bridge) on the visual for 28L due to class B airspace up to ?1500'?. This is about 3-400 above a 3 degree (ILS) slope. What happens if a crew elects to fly an ILS in VMC regarding traffic in the Class B airspace?
Anyone from SFO help please? I see from the Asiana thread that there is as 'advisory' of 1900 at DME 6 (the bridge) on the visual for 28L due to class B airspace up to ?1500'?. This is about 3-400 above a 3 degree (ILS) slope. What happens if a crew elects to fly an ILS in VMC regarding traffic in the Class B airspace?
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180 to 5
First: I do not blame ATC for the accident. Just to be clear.
Question: “180 to 5” is a well known procedure (or “demand”) by ATC world wide. I do expect that to be 180 to 5 (nautical) miles from threshold. Is that correct, or could it be interpreted as DME 5? At SFO, the latter means about a mile shorter as the VOR/DME equipment is half way down the runway. (I’m not a professional pilot by the way)
When you are supposed to be stable at 500 feet, which means 1,5 miles from threshold, A 180 to 5 DME (for SFO) means you have 2,5 mile to get stable. A friend of mine is a 737 (all of them) pilot, and he says “180 to 5 is OK, but with no time to spare”. “There is just enough time to put down final flap and complete landing checklist”, he says.
Now, is it absolutely clear that “180 to 5” means 5 nm from threshold? DME could be at the far end of the runway making “180 to 5 DME” pretty close…
Question: “180 to 5” is a well known procedure (or “demand”) by ATC world wide. I do expect that to be 180 to 5 (nautical) miles from threshold. Is that correct, or could it be interpreted as DME 5? At SFO, the latter means about a mile shorter as the VOR/DME equipment is half way down the runway. (I’m not a professional pilot by the way)
When you are supposed to be stable at 500 feet, which means 1,5 miles from threshold, A 180 to 5 DME (for SFO) means you have 2,5 mile to get stable. A friend of mine is a 737 (all of them) pilot, and he says “180 to 5 is OK, but with no time to spare”. “There is just enough time to put down final flap and complete landing checklist”, he says.
Now, is it absolutely clear that “180 to 5” means 5 nm from threshold? DME could be at the far end of the runway making “180 to 5 DME” pretty close…
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Bobcat, although I don't know if it is the case at SFO, usually when a DME is associated with a runway, it is 'zero-ranged' to read 0DME at the threshold, even though it is not sited there.
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bobcat - it will be 5 from touchdown and don't forget most airlines like you to be 'stable' at 1000' with a mandatory g/a (if only!!) at 500'
Gonzo - airfield V/D, middle of 11,000' runway, not zeroed
Gonzo - airfield V/D, middle of 11,000' runway, not zeroed
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Clear2Land78
Thanks for posting your inside view. Some of our Heathrow posters will know exactly where you are coming from.
Thanks for posting your inside view. Some of our Heathrow posters will know exactly where you are coming from.
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Gonzo wrote:
Yes, that’s also known as TDME (Terminal DME) and is co-located with the ILS. I know how DME works, and that it is often (always?) related to VOR or ILS.
Asiana 214 was cleared on a visual (TIPP TOE) to 28L. ILS (GS) was out of service. I believe the localiser was operational.
As far as I know, SFO VOR/DME (115.8) is not adjusted to threshold and being located almost exactly on the midpoint between 28L and 10R, approximately 5000 feet from both thresholds, would add a little less than one mile to DME compared to TDME.
Even though “180 to 5” means 5 miles to threshold, and when tuned to TDME would give the correct distance, it is possible that Asiana pilots had DME to SFO VOR in the display, right?
Of course, on a visual approach one would see the San Mateo Bridge (otherwise it wouldn’t be a visual).
Edit: My point is when “180 to 5” is ok “with no time to spare”, 180 to 4 would be a problem on a heavy jet. They would have to get rid of 40 knots, configured for landing and completed the landing checklist in one mile (less than 30 seconds) if required to be stable at 1000 feet. Sounds like a lot of work in a short time. But again, it’s just a matter of going around and try again.
Bobcat, although I don't know if it is the case at SFO, usually when a DME is associated with a runway, it is 'zero-ranged' to read 0DME at the threshold, even though it is not sited there.
Asiana 214 was cleared on a visual (TIPP TOE) to 28L. ILS (GS) was out of service. I believe the localiser was operational.
As far as I know, SFO VOR/DME (115.8) is not adjusted to threshold and being located almost exactly on the midpoint between 28L and 10R, approximately 5000 feet from both thresholds, would add a little less than one mile to DME compared to TDME.
Even though “180 to 5” means 5 miles to threshold, and when tuned to TDME would give the correct distance, it is possible that Asiana pilots had DME to SFO VOR in the display, right?
Of course, on a visual approach one would see the San Mateo Bridge (otherwise it wouldn’t be a visual).
Edit: My point is when “180 to 5” is ok “with no time to spare”, 180 to 4 would be a problem on a heavy jet. They would have to get rid of 40 knots, configured for landing and completed the landing checklist in one mile (less than 30 seconds) if required to be stable at 1000 feet. Sounds like a lot of work in a short time. But again, it’s just a matter of going around and try again.
Last edited by bobcat4; 18th Jul 2013 at 08:47.
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Clear2Land78... I'm glad that your coworkers are being well looked after because what happened will stick with them all their lives. It was my misfortune to be involved in two major accidents in my career - one abroad and one here in the UK. On neither occasion was I or my colleagues offered aby "help" and on both occasions we had to continue working. Not much fun..
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Clear2Land,
Good to hear that both management and union are working well together. I witnessed BAW38 and can appreciate the situation of having to carry on.
Hopefully as well as lessons learned from the incident itself, in time lessons will be learned regarding critical incident stress management for those involved and we can improve it for those in the future.
Good to hear that both management and union are working well together. I witnessed BAW38 and can appreciate the situation of having to carry on.
Hopefully as well as lessons learned from the incident itself, in time lessons will be learned regarding critical incident stress management for those involved and we can improve it for those in the future.
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Fire Cover?
Forgive me as I want to be sure exactly what you are asking because we probably use different terms here in the US? I have never heard of the term "fire cover." If you are able to define what you meant, I can try to give you an appropriate answer.
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Heathrow Director response
Hi mate. Thanks for your words. The Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) is actually modeled off the program used by emergency first responders (firefighters, paramedics/EMT, police, etc). Our union has currently about 12 trained individuals and there is a 24/7 communication if needed. If small accident, they sometimes talk via phone but in cases of larger incidents, someone more or less comes in person. I was not involved in the accident but when the rep was at the tower, I took the time to learn about the program.
People have to understand that after witnessing something like that, you kind of work the traffic at the moment but you need to get those individuals off position and give them "healing" time. I truly believe such system works as my brother was a firefighter, then paramedic, and is now a lieutenant in the department. No matter the occupation, we are human and we all handle and cope with tragedies differently. It is important that point is understood.
People have to understand that after witnessing something like that, you kind of work the traffic at the moment but you need to get those individuals off position and give them "healing" time. I truly believe such system works as my brother was a firefighter, then paramedic, and is now a lieutenant in the department. No matter the occupation, we are human and we all handle and cope with tragedies differently. It is important that point is understood.
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Clear2Land78
You are so right. I saw a big bomb explosion at one place I worked. Some laughed it off whilst others almost freaked out.
At the ATCC where I worked last, there was a small tradition amongst some controllers. If one of the ladies had a fright, one of the guys would give her a hug and the ladies would do it for us. A hug can help a great deal, whether you know the person or not.
Take care good friend and may all your frights be small ones.
At the ATCC where I worked last, there was a small tradition amongst some controllers. If one of the ladies had a fright, one of the guys would give her a hug and the ladies would do it for us. A hug can help a great deal, whether you know the person or not.
Take care good friend and may all your frights be small ones.
cleartoland78
'Fire cover' simply means that there are enough appliances/fire engines available to cope with a further event. If I recall correctly, in an emergency at Heathrow the local 'civil' fire brigade would also attend and if necessary take over from the airport guys who would be able to replenish their wagons (trucks) and be ready to assume their role.
Gonzo
My No2 off-spring, an ATCO at Swanwick ( not a real one of course
) was flying to Malaga recently and sat next to him was the skipper of BA38. He said he is a really nice bloke and they had a fascinating chat, especially as No2's girl friend had also been in a crash several years ago - what the pax around them thought who knows!
Under the 'what a small world' heading, the co-pilot of BA38 was head boy of Gillingham School when my lot were there!
HD
Bren, as usual, wise words! Hope you are well. Brian W
Gonzo
My No2 off-spring, an ATCO at Swanwick ( not a real one of course
) was flying to Malaga recently and sat next to him was the skipper of BA38. He said he is a really nice bloke and they had a fascinating chat, especially as No2's girl friend had also been in a crash several years ago - what the pax around them thought who knows!Under the 'what a small world' heading, the co-pilot of BA38 was head boy of Gillingham School when my lot were there!
HD
Bren, as usual, wise words! Hope you are well. Brian W
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 22nd Jul 2013 at 21:14. Reason: miising word
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Brian,
I was Sup (only giving the rostered Sup a break!) at the time. I ended up giving a joint presentation to a medial human factors conference with Capt. Burkhill about the accident. Spent two days in pretty exalted company, test pilots, astronauts, neurosurgeons, solo yachtsmen, international rugby players.
Though even better than all that I had dinner with Katie Derham, at Lords! ok:
I was Sup (only giving the rostered Sup a break!) at the time. I ended up giving a joint presentation to a medial human factors conference with Capt. Burkhill about the accident. Spent two days in pretty exalted company, test pilots, astronauts, neurosurgeons, solo yachtsmen, international rugby players.
Though even better than all that I had dinner with Katie Derham, at Lords! ok:
Last edited by Gonzo; 23rd Jul 2013 at 04:53.
Gonzo
I trust the test pilots, astronauts,neurosurgeons etc realised they were in exalted company ...... A Heathrow Controller
I'm still looking out for the lovely Kate H in Monmouth Waitrose - but Kate D, wow, in the Mary Nightingale league!
I'm still looking out for the lovely Kate H in Monmouth Waitrose - but Kate D, wow, in the Mary Nightingale league!
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Fire Cover
At SFO, there are a few fire houses. Basically, we have 3 alert levels. Depending on the level, depends on how many vehicles stage themselves. Alert one is minor situation, alert 2 is basically a more seriously situation, and an alert 3 is an accident (or inflight fire as I would be inclined to call). An alert 3 calls on community responders to respond to.
This tends to be the trend at the airports. It is about the same as JFK and even at LGB (VFR airport with commercial traffic). I remember one night the approach control called me and said a Gulfstream was having hydraulic issues and had no further information. You know this could be a little thing but could always be huge. I called the major alert. It was very late at night. The whole airport lit up like a Christmas tree with firetrucks and rescue vehicles. I was afraid I was going to get in trouble for over-calling the alert but my supervisor said he was not doubting my call at all. That was good. LOL.
This tends to be the trend at the airports. It is about the same as JFK and even at LGB (VFR airport with commercial traffic). I remember one night the approach control called me and said a Gulfstream was having hydraulic issues and had no further information. You know this could be a little thing but could always be huge. I called the major alert. It was very late at night. The whole airport lit up like a Christmas tree with firetrucks and rescue vehicles. I was afraid I was going to get in trouble for over-calling the alert but my supervisor said he was not doubting my call at all. That was good. LOL.