Single European Sky
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Single European Sky
Hi all,
The EU executive wants to end the fragmentation of European airspace, which costs EU up to 8,000 million euros per year and can reach average increase flight distance by up to 42 kilometers, which also multiplies emissions and pollution .
But air traffic controllers do not want the Single European Sky because it involves the elimination of jobs and the transfer of employees to other countries. This is the real reason for the controllers strike in France.
The EU executive wants to end the fragmentation of European airspace, which costs EU up to 8,000 million euros per year and can reach average increase flight distance by up to 42 kilometers, which also multiplies emissions and pollution .
But air traffic controllers do not want the Single European Sky because it involves the elimination of jobs and the transfer of employees to other countries. This is the real reason for the controllers strike in France.
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Smiling uncle Siim tells us that:- "The European Commission is looking to head off a capacity crunch as the number of flights is forecast to increase by 50% over the next 10-20 years".
Yet, allegedly, uncle Richard, CEO of a 'World Leader', is trying to get rid of experienced staff.
It reminds me of a lyric by Bob Dylan....
"Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong".
Yet, allegedly, uncle Richard, CEO of a 'World Leader', is trying to get rid of experienced staff.
It reminds me of a lyric by Bob Dylan....
"Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong".
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Kiwi,
Skim-read some of your references.
Pages and pages of lists, statistics, graphs and woffle, but I do like the use of the green typeface in the environment section.
Who has 'forecast' this 50% traffic increase and how was the figure of 42km arrived at?
Oh, of course, 'The Hitch-Hikers' Guide To The Galaxy'.
Skim-read some of your references.
Pages and pages of lists, statistics, graphs and woffle, but I do like the use of the green typeface in the environment section.
Who has 'forecast' this 50% traffic increase and how was the figure of 42km arrived at?
Oh, of course, 'The Hitch-Hikers' Guide To The Galaxy'.
Last edited by ZOOKER; 11th Jun 2013 at 22:38.
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he Single European Sky (SES) aims to triple European capacity and half the unit costs of delivering air traffic management
the full and swift deployment of Single European Sky Air Traffic Management Research (SESAR) technology would lead to the creation of 328,000 jobs in Europe
flight times would be cut by some 10% on average and cancellations and delays would be halved.
Now, unlike Mr Kallas I am not an economist, he on the other hand has been a bank director for several years according to wikipedia. I can't fail but think though that if costs are cut in half, and thousands of jobs are created by it (and as a bonus capacity is increased). Isn't that saying that 1-1 equals 2? Or that you can both have the cake and still eat it. It just seems like a perfect scenario to me, something that seems very unlikely to exist in the real world.
But then again, the bankers are known to run a very stable and sound business , I'm sure he knows what he's doing
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LookingForAJob,
Thank-you, you're absolutely spot-on, now why on Earth did I think it was Dylan when Dire Straits are one of my favourite bands?
I must play Love Over Gold again today.
Thank-you, you're absolutely spot-on, now why on Earth did I think it was Dylan when Dire Straits are one of my favourite bands?
I must play Love Over Gold again today.
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"I don't want to detract from serious debate on this topic......but wasn't it Dire Straits?"
Certainly was - "Industrial Disease".
Certainly was - "Industrial Disease".
Now to the topic at hand, it is obvious that the targets and purposes of the EU with respect to SES run contrary to national interests of many a Euroland government and it will be interesting to watch this conflict play out. Ultimately it puts the french administration in a hard place; on one side there is the unremitting "strike at the ready" french workforce culture, the breaking of which would probably require a Reaganesque fortitude, on the other there is the EC demanding results after 10+ years of promises and lip service from SESAR, an industry backed bureaucratic exercise used to secure and expand the markets of the french based industrial heavyweights.
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Main problem with SES and idea to change anything in better direction is idea itself.
what is better solution?
Who will make it ?
and finally who will implements alll those solutions?
It is very under question, are FABs better solution or not ? I haven't seen papers so far, showing that.
if anyone has reliable paper showing that excatly to share with us here ,I will appreciate
Who will make it ?
Most of the people engaged now in these stories ( i said most of ,not all ) are miles aways from operational postings. We have introduced radars and screens since they chage operational room for "perpesctive" administartion position. They have serious problem with vison and startegic ideas ( because they aren't up to date ) and all these stories about FABs usually covers their good salaries and other benefits, on cost of us-operational workers ,and they could earn milions of euros for doing nothing, after ten years of doing nothing they retire to Spain. So it is easier to send them to Spain, now.
People capable of doing this has no interests in such thing, because it will ultimately reduced their T & C .
And who wants to work more for less ?
here is the answer to last question-implementation. It will not be implemented,because of the personal reasons.
I have witnessed at least two such big Ideas.
CEATS and FAB CE.
I couldn't agree more with Michael O Leary regarding -CEATS
FAB CE- started with idea to change CEATS "mulfunctions" now it is obvious that they have the same idea as CEATS (one center,and so on... )
and it will finish like CEATS ,if something radical is not changed.
Yes ,it is cheaper to have one center, but who will work there?
Only people from that town/state or all citizens will have equaly employment rights?
On paper ,everyone will be equal ( any similarity with Orvel is pure coincidence ) but in reality ,someone will have to go from his lovely adriatic sea town to live and work in Viena. And it might be good for that person, but for local community and country as well, it si not good.
He/she will pay taxes at Viena ,not in their city, and even worse thing, most of spending will occur in Viena, not in any other town.
And that is point, our legacy and our property ( airspace over our teritories ) but we have little or nothing earnings.
Politicians will never sign something like this.
Also ,who will be decision maker, who will buy equipment, and everything else connected with decision making proces.
That are real questions, not shall we make more efficient system.
if we want efficient system than everyone concerned must be satisfied,otherwise it won't work,effectivelly.
As in any other bussienss.
IATA or anyone else ,who wants to lower costs.need people whounderstand other side, but for tehm it is very complcated to recruit people capable of doing this, because they aren't able (and don't wish ) to pay adequate sums.
It is very hard, to offer competetive package for well positioned and trainned atco or atc manager ,currently working for most of Europan ANSPs.
It is not only salary, but other benefits and the most important issue-job stability as well.. That is something that IATA ( bussiness oriented) will never be able to do.
from my point of view , it seems that is cheaper to have currently "inefficient" system than to improve it .
And that is what industry ,really needs. cheap and safe,if possible. but cheap.
what is better solution?
Who will make it ?
and finally who will implements alll those solutions?
It is very under question, are FABs better solution or not ? I haven't seen papers so far, showing that.
if anyone has reliable paper showing that excatly to share with us here ,I will appreciate
Who will make it ?
Most of the people engaged now in these stories ( i said most of ,not all ) are miles aways from operational postings. We have introduced radars and screens since they chage operational room for "perpesctive" administartion position. They have serious problem with vison and startegic ideas ( because they aren't up to date ) and all these stories about FABs usually covers their good salaries and other benefits, on cost of us-operational workers ,and they could earn milions of euros for doing nothing, after ten years of doing nothing they retire to Spain. So it is easier to send them to Spain, now.
People capable of doing this has no interests in such thing, because it will ultimately reduced their T & C .
And who wants to work more for less ?
here is the answer to last question-implementation. It will not be implemented,because of the personal reasons.
I have witnessed at least two such big Ideas.
CEATS and FAB CE.
I couldn't agree more with Michael O Leary regarding -CEATS
FAB CE- started with idea to change CEATS "mulfunctions" now it is obvious that they have the same idea as CEATS (one center,and so on... )
and it will finish like CEATS ,if something radical is not changed.
Yes ,it is cheaper to have one center, but who will work there?
Only people from that town/state or all citizens will have equaly employment rights?
On paper ,everyone will be equal ( any similarity with Orvel is pure coincidence
) but in reality ,someone will have to go from his lovely adriatic sea town to live and work in Viena. And it might be good for that person, but for local community and country as well, it si not good.He/she will pay taxes at Viena ,not in their city, and even worse thing, most of spending will occur in Viena, not in any other town.
And that is point, our legacy and our property ( airspace over our teritories ) but we have little or nothing earnings.
Politicians will never sign something like this.
Also ,who will be decision maker, who will buy equipment, and everything else connected with decision making proces.
That are real questions, not shall we make more efficient system.
if we want efficient system than everyone concerned must be satisfied,otherwise it won't work,effectivelly.
As in any other bussienss.
IATA or anyone else ,who wants to lower costs.need people whounderstand other side, but for tehm it is very complcated to recruit people capable of doing this, because they aren't able (and don't wish ) to pay adequate sums.
It is very hard, to offer competetive package for well positioned and trainned atco or atc manager ,currently working for most of Europan ANSPs.
It is not only salary, but other benefits and the most important issue-job stability as well.. That is something that IATA ( bussiness oriented) will never be able to do.
from my point of view , it seems that is cheaper to have currently "inefficient" system than to improve it .
And that is what industry ,really needs. cheap and safe,if possible. but cheap.
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to SINGAPURCANAC
You make some interesting points.... In my opinion, in theory FABs are a good idea.... in practise though there are too many people guarding and protecting their own back garden, so nothing will move forward unless there is a big political will to do so.... perhaps the creation of one large European company/institution would solve many of the national issues?? Just a thought....
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to shorten my answer.
location of such institution?
eurocontrol has such idea, basicly speaking. and what happend to it?
as you already know.
soon or latter, paper power. national CAAs or (EASA) took job back.
Basic political question:
Who is the Boss?
You my Lord!
Than everything in my garden!
location of such institution?
eurocontrol has such idea, basicly speaking. and what happend to it?
as you already know.
soon or latter, paper power. national CAAs or (EASA) took job back.
Basic political question:
Who is the Boss?
You my Lord!
Than everything in my garden!
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SINGAPURCANAC
Hi Singa
Long time no speak.
Europe has around somewhere in the region of 43 ACCs, USA has around 22 ACCs. Time to consilidate and achieve economy of scale.
Biggest problem is the Air defence role involved in each European country.
Cheers
Hi Singa
Long time no speak.
Europe has around somewhere in the region of 43 ACCs, USA has around 22 ACCs. Time to consilidate and achieve economy of scale.
Biggest problem is the Air defence role involved in each European country.
Cheers
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cheers
agree ,Military is one side of coin. Power,real power .
I haven't seen so far numbers.
if we compare USA and Europe. in atc terms.
Yes 22 vs 42 ACCs. but,
I am not expert for this issues, but I have one question : " is USA ATC system more efficient than European ?
I wouldn't say so. Acft departing JFK inbound SFO vs LHR to Greece???
not to mention, atcos and managers T & C
According to data that I have see and know not too much difference. In money terms
but working hours ,rest periods and so on. Even not close for comparsion.
And belive me ,no one in Europe will accept that american standars horor conditions.
6 days on, 1 off ( to top of this I have heard that person working such shifts always is free in the same day i.e. youare always free on tuesdays,on example )
Holiday - maximum 14 days???
and so ,we may write three books relating to their "freedom of work" .
that is the reason why Spanish,French and many other atcos all around Europe will make resistance. they are just excellent in defending living rights.
this morning I got "report" about SES .
they had a meeting,somewhere in Europe.
All old ladies and boys,arrived. per diem is anything above 100 eurs,plus hotel, plus transportation, plus dinner at the expense of conference host. Other applicable souvenirs ,to remeber them of conference
, plus God knows what else. 
And do you know what they decide and do at taht meeting?
Nothing.
and now we are discussing about SES and number f ACCs and atcos.
Who cares ?
best regard my friend
agree ,Military is one side of coin. Power,real power .
I haven't seen so far numbers.
if we compare USA and Europe. in atc terms.
Yes 22 vs 42 ACCs. but,
I am not expert for this issues, but I have one question : " is USA ATC system more efficient than European ?
I wouldn't say so. Acft departing JFK inbound SFO vs LHR to Greece???
not to mention, atcos and managers T & C
According to data that I have see and know not too much difference. In money terms
but working hours ,rest periods and so on. Even not close for comparsion.
And belive me ,no one in Europe will accept that american standars horor conditions.
6 days on, 1 off ( to top of this I have heard that person working such shifts always is free in the same day i.e. youare always free on tuesdays,on example )
Holiday - maximum 14 days???
and so ,we may write three books relating to their "freedom of work" .
that is the reason why Spanish,French and many other atcos all around Europe will make resistance. they are just excellent in defending living rights.
this morning I got "report" about SES
. they had a meeting,somewhere in Europe.
All old ladies and boys,arrived. per diem is anything above 100 eurs,plus hotel, plus transportation, plus dinner at the expense of conference host. Other applicable souvenirs ,to remeber them of conference
, plus God knows what else. And do you know what they decide and do at taht meeting?
Nothing.
and now we are discussing about SES and number f ACCs and atcos.
Who cares ?
best regard my friend
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Well, spanish ATCs were working on 5-1 basis just 3 years ago, and 6 shifts on that 5 days of work sometimes. Some people worked 29 shifts in one month. And always remember that the day "off" was the sleeping day, we had night the last day, so indeed we had 24 hours off!
Single European Sky to make routes shorter... nice idea! Like if Lisbon ATCs didnīt call us usually to ask "is Talavera area active to send a direct?". Or if like LFBB didnīt have militar areas close to the border and was able to acept directs sometimes... the main problem are not the number of ACCs, but the militar areas.
Single European Sky to make routes shorter... nice idea! Like if Lisbon ATCs didnīt call us usually to ask "is Talavera area active to send a direct?". Or if like LFBB didnīt have militar areas close to the border and was able to acept directs sometimes... the main problem are not the number of ACCs, but the militar areas.
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I assume making the sky above Europe cheaper to fly through has no inherent safety issues attached by reducing provision costs? EU are pushing for this, so it must be safe!
We could collectively organise direct action to draw attention to this lunacy - maybe if we send a postcard to parliament all would be okay. Surly that would make the world sit up and notice
Last edited by Dan Dare; 15th Jun 2013 at 15:02.