Bombing Missions from the UK
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Bombing Missions from the UK
I may be straying into sensitive areas so might not get an answer which I'll understand, but when we’ve been to war in recent years (bombing Bosnia for example or when the US bombed Libya from Upper Heyford) when the bombers leave Britain on a mission, who provides ATC for the aircraft when they are in controlled airspace ? What happens when they fly over a country which may not support the war we’re in and what happens out over the Atlantic etc (like when the Vulcans re-deployed to Ascension for Black Buck) or are other countries obliged to provide a radar service.
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They need a diplomatic clearance to overfly such territories ; Here were I am every ACC has got a military unit handling this kind of traffic in strict coordination with the civil sector-s
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I seem to recall that due to - how shall I put it - 'diplomatic difficulties', the F-111s routed west clear of mainland Europe over the Og and into the Med over Gib, but which, if any ground based unit, was 'controlling' over the Atlantic I have no idea.
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There's a principle called "The need to know" and I'm sorry you don't qualify.
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There is something like providing a general information which hasn't any practical implications instead of being plain rude 
In Spain, ACCs do have a military unit which takes control of those traffics and ensures their separation with a) other military traffics b) civilian traffics.
The latter is done either using specific military corridors / areas or by direct coordination with the civilian atcos in the same room.
This is probably (just my guess) preceded by a coordination at diplomatic level (in order to see if a country B does allow military traffic from country A to cross their airspace in order to bomb country C... as you may think this is not usually seen kindly by said country C). If this is accepted then the military coordination would have to handle with the "when" and "where" of that operation.
So, and now pleas let me know in which way I have provided actionable intelligence?
In Spain, ACCs do have a military unit which takes control of those traffics and ensures their separation with a) other military traffics b) civilian traffics.
The latter is done either using specific military corridors / areas or by direct coordination with the civilian atcos in the same room.
This is probably (just my guess) preceded by a coordination at diplomatic level (in order to see if a country B does allow military traffic from country A to cross their airspace in order to bomb country C... as you may think this is not usually seen kindly by said country C). If this is accepted then the military coordination would have to handle with the "when" and "where" of that operation.
So, and now pleas let me know in which way I have provided actionable intelligence?
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The ICAO convention rules are not applicable to military flights although the military, as a politeness and also dependent upon the countries involved, adhere to ICAO standards otherwise they fly Due Regard.
In the case of a country like France they would request Diplomatic Clearance and if this request was refused they would fly outside of French airpace, i.e. remaining 12 NM off shore, hence the F111s flight path.
In the case of a country like France they would request Diplomatic Clearance and if this request was refused they would fly outside of French airpace, i.e. remaining 12 NM off shore, hence the F111s flight path.
Last edited by Vercingetorix; 5th Feb 2013 at 08:02.
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The guy is a ppl and it does actually come up in PPL training quite abit how this thing goes on.
My completely clueless reply while being a instructor was.
The Mil have certain sets of rules inside other countries national airspace for certain things. If a high up person agrees with another high up person they can fly through it if they want to do certain sensative things.
Outside this airspace they operate with due regard and basically ignore controlled airspace they maybe talking to someone they maybe not. This is what the russians do coming across and ignoring controlled airspace and restricted areas in the Northsea which they have been doing for years. They would hardly be speaking to Scottish Info now would they. Although if they did I am sure they would get a cracking service.
The giving it the need to know doesn't actually answer the question and just makes a bigger fuss than it actually is.
Vercingetorix answer is the only reply thats required doesn't give anything away and answers the question without making out that the whole thing is some super sneaky operation and usually stops the interest from then on.
To be honest a load of bombers armed going off to do a job is a relatively easy one compared to the questions about rendition flights. Which my answer has always been I don't have a sodding clue and don't particularly want to know either.
My completely clueless reply while being a instructor was.
The Mil have certain sets of rules inside other countries national airspace for certain things. If a high up person agrees with another high up person they can fly through it if they want to do certain sensative things.
Outside this airspace they operate with due regard and basically ignore controlled airspace they maybe talking to someone they maybe not. This is what the russians do coming across and ignoring controlled airspace and restricted areas in the Northsea which they have been doing for years. They would hardly be speaking to Scottish Info now would they. Although if they did I am sure they would get a cracking service.
The giving it the need to know doesn't actually answer the question and just makes a bigger fuss than it actually is.
Vercingetorix answer is the only reply thats required doesn't give anything away and answers the question without making out that the whole thing is some super sneaky operation and usually stops the interest from then on.
To be honest a load of bombers armed going off to do a job is a relatively easy one compared to the questions about rendition flights. Which my answer has always been I don't have a sodding clue and don't particularly want to know either.
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Chevron: This is exactly what should be discussed on a public forum. If we supply support for any military action (including unlawful international kidnapping aka "rendition"), we pay the price. Furthermore, I'll not have anything else done "in my name" and then not be told what's happened. Historically, our government has been far too secret and has withheld far too much information - yet are pretty damn quick in supplying me with the bill. Recently, Blair's cheating, lying, duplicitous policies have cost this country respect, decency and security but more importantly, the lives of far too many of our Service personnel and tens of thousands of innocent civilians. We must make it so that scumbags like Blair can never hide the past and become fully accountable for what they did.
We must be open, honest and above all have integrity. With this we will have a better fighting force, properly equipped with a clear vision. Such principles might also help close the Forces' funding gap by having a more honest approach to defence procurement. But there again, there might also be fairies at the bottom of our garden...
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We must be open, honest and above all have integrity. With this we will have a better fighting force, properly equipped with a clear vision. Such principles might also help close the Forces' funding gap by having a more honest approach to defence procurement. But there again, there might also be fairies at the bottom of our garden...
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055166K - dinna be soft, I'm sure that any hostile reaction would have taken place long ago.
...and try as I might, I cannot remember an occasion when there was a mass departure of F-111s from Heathrow, destination XXXX SEE FIELD 11.
...and try as I might, I cannot remember an occasion when there was a mass departure of F-111s from Heathrow, destination XXXX SEE FIELD 11.
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The Military are not signatures to the ICAO convention. In essence, so long as they remain over international waters, i.e. 12+ NMs offshore, they can fly where and when they like but with countries that have some political clout they don't, they adhere to the ICAO rules.
An example would be in the Gulf States where there is much military flying. They, the Military, would often fly in the approach lanes to Dubai International at any height that suited their operation up to 12 NM offshore. When questioned as the the lack of safety involved in such practice they would say that they are flying Due Regard and are over International waters. They are correct much to the chagrin of both the UAE ACC and OMDB APP controllers.
The fact that the Military behaves itself in Europe is that most European countries have access to the corridors of power and have corresponding gentlemen's agreements. That is why it doesn't happen in the Thames Estuary!
The ICAO convention rules are not applicable to military flights although the military, as a politeness and also dependent upon the countries involved, adhere to ICAO standards otherwise they fly Due Regard.
An example would be in the Gulf States where there is much military flying. They, the Military, would often fly in the approach lanes to Dubai International at any height that suited their operation up to 12 NM offshore. When questioned as the the lack of safety involved in such practice they would say that they are flying Due Regard and are over International waters. They are correct much to the chagrin of both the UAE ACC and OMDB APP controllers.
The fact that the Military behaves itself in Europe is that most European countries have access to the corridors of power and have corresponding gentlemen's agreements. That is why it doesn't happen in the Thames Estuary!
Last edited by Vercingetorix; 5th Feb 2013 at 10:18.
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Thanks guys for the answers I surely did not want anyone to reveal something tha might get them into trouble so the details I got from most of you was just what I was asking.
Vercingetorix - I think you may have alluded to the question I was really asking but probably worded it badly. When you say 'outside territorial waters (over 12 miles) does this mean that no one really has authority over the Atlantic once you get more than 12 miles out then ?
Vercingetorix - I think you may have alluded to the question I was really asking but probably worded it badly. When you say 'outside territorial waters (over 12 miles) does this mean that no one really has authority over the Atlantic once you get more than 12 miles out then ?
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Mate there is a raft of stuff about territorial waters and the like to go have a look at on the internet.
There are all sorts of issues from mineral rights to fishing rights and the like.
And your only thinking about stuff you can see above the surface of the water apparently there are all sorts of fun and games going on under it as well with submarines getting a bit to close for comfort. Not un heard of for people hill walking to see a black fin sitting in a scottish sea loch with a load of lads putting plywood over a bit of it and painting it black.
There are all sorts of issues from mineral rights to fishing rights and the like.
And your only thinking about stuff you can see above the surface of the water apparently there are all sorts of fun and games going on under it as well with submarines getting a bit to close for comfort. Not un heard of for people hill walking to see a black fin sitting in a scottish sea loch with a load of lads putting plywood over a bit of it and painting it black.
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Correct, but not just over the Atlantic but all countries territorial waters.
Once off shore by 12 NMs+ the Mil has complete autonomy. It is only subrogated by direct inter government agreement and nothing to do with ICAO.
Not something that pops up too much in a UK scenario as we abide by their rules and they by ours, i.e. UK & USA.
In effect the major player (USA), should it so decide, walks all over the minor player (Pakistan) while playing diplomatic courtesy as in saying Wham Bam Thank you Mam.
The basic rule is that while Diplomatic courtesies are being extended it is impolite to trangress into another countries airspace! The Russians did it with the UK, The USA does it with other countries, i.e. U2 flights, etc.
On a more prosaic note as per Mad Jock's comments re PPL this may well be what is required for exam purposes but is best filed as worthwhile reference materiel.
So, good luck and best wishes.
Cheers.
Correct, but not just over the Atlantic but all countries territorial waters.
Once off shore by 12 NMs+ the Mil has complete autonomy. It is only subrogated by direct inter government agreement and nothing to do with ICAO.
Not something that pops up too much in a UK scenario as we abide by their rules and they by ours, i.e. UK & USA.
In effect the major player (USA), should it so decide, walks all over the minor player (Pakistan) while playing diplomatic courtesy as in saying Wham Bam Thank you Mam.
The basic rule is that while Diplomatic courtesies are being extended it is impolite to trangress into another countries airspace! The Russians did it with the UK, The USA does it with other countries, i.e. U2 flights, etc.
On a more prosaic note as per Mad Jock's comments re PPL this may well be what is required for exam purposes but is best filed as worthwhile reference materiel.
So, good luck and best wishes.
Cheers.
Last edited by Vercingetorix; 5th Feb 2013 at 13:50.
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There not required to know it for PPL. Its just that alot of them find it interesting how the system works. It usually comes up when looking at intercept procedures.
The question of how a fast jet is going to intercept a 90knt spam can is usually the topic. BTW I said to the students if you get something fast like that coming near you more than once select 121.5 and give a MAYDAY, callsign and position and say you believe you are being intercepted standing by for instructions in UK airspace.
Apparently how they do that is need to know as well, unfortunately the pilots that might be intercepted are deemed not needing to know.
The question of how a fast jet is going to intercept a 90knt spam can is usually the topic. BTW I said to the students if you get something fast like that coming near you more than once select 121.5 and give a MAYDAY, callsign and position and say you believe you are being intercepted standing by for instructions in UK airspace.
Apparently how they do that is need to know as well, unfortunately the pilots that might be intercepted are deemed not needing to know.
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The guy's been shot down in flames but after 190 tedious messages about the old Heathrow tower I actually thought this was an interesting subject 
Last edited by LEGAL TENDER; 5th Feb 2013 at 14:07.