A question on short cuts and direct routings
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A question on short cuts and direct routings
Greetings!
My question starts with a "once upon a time" story... Last Friday, flying CDG-Cologne/Bonn (CGN); after a direct DIKOL, Paris ACC (131.175MHz) clears us direct MMD (Montmédy VOR), then as we approach it, transfers us to Brussels ACC (125.000MHz). On first contact, the ATCO answers "xxx, radar contact". I then ask for the (usual) short cut to ARCKY or NOR (Norvenich VOR) which prevents a dogleg in the route, and he answers "did you ask Paris?" Well, of course not! Every time I've done so, they've answered with a transfer to Brussels... When I tell him we didn't, his answer is: "well, you should have!" and - that's it! Then, over 5min later, he eventually gives us direct NOR.
Call me paranoïd, but I thought I could tell by the tone in the ATCO's voice that he didn't want to do the red-eye shift...
My question is: how as crew are we supposed to know which ACC to ask for a given short cut? As mentioned, whenever I asked Paris for a direct ARCKY or NOR, they never gave it. Was this a particular ATCO being uncooperative, and did he make up this explanation for not giving us the short cut that we otherwise get every single time? I have to add that workload is probably not a problem, with only a few cargo feeder aircraft such as us flying to CGN or LGG at that time of day...
Thanks for the answers.
Cheers
My question starts with a "once upon a time" story... Last Friday, flying CDG-Cologne/Bonn (CGN); after a direct DIKOL, Paris ACC (131.175MHz) clears us direct MMD (Montmédy VOR), then as we approach it, transfers us to Brussels ACC (125.000MHz). On first contact, the ATCO answers "xxx, radar contact". I then ask for the (usual) short cut to ARCKY or NOR (Norvenich VOR) which prevents a dogleg in the route, and he answers "did you ask Paris?" Well, of course not! Every time I've done so, they've answered with a transfer to Brussels... When I tell him we didn't, his answer is: "well, you should have!" and - that's it! Then, over 5min later, he eventually gives us direct NOR.
Call me paranoïd, but I thought I could tell by the tone in the ATCO's voice that he didn't want to do the red-eye shift...
My question is: how as crew are we supposed to know which ACC to ask for a given short cut? As mentioned, whenever I asked Paris for a direct ARCKY or NOR, they never gave it. Was this a particular ATCO being uncooperative, and did he make up this explanation for not giving us the short cut that we otherwise get every single time? I have to add that workload is probably not a problem, with only a few cargo feeder aircraft such as us flying to CGN or LGG at that time of day...
Thanks for the answers.
Cheers
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It seems to be a cross border DCT and it will not take more then 30 secs to do the coordination with the previous sector. We do this routinely in LAAA. We there to assist, aren't we?
Last edited by zilir; 13th Jan 2013 at 14:35.
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I'm now retired but used to work those sectors in the UAS.
What time of day was it, what Flight Level?
It's not just a because you are (possibly) still in another Centre's airspace; ther is a possibility of military activity off route (the daytime route in the LAS used to be MMD LUX DIK LNO NOR)
You have no idea how busy the controller was so he may have had to make two extra phone calls, one to Paris and one to the Military ATCC at Semmerzake, so it could quite possibly take 5 minutes if he also had to answer other phone calls. It is also entirely possible that there was other, conflicting, traffic.
If you are so worried or upset, why didn't you phone and ask? The number's in the AIP
What time of day was it, what Flight Level?
It's not just a because you are (possibly) still in another Centre's airspace; ther is a possibility of military activity off route (the daytime route in the LAS used to be MMD LUX DIK LNO NOR)
You have no idea how busy the controller was so he may have had to make two extra phone calls, one to Paris and one to the Military ATCC at Semmerzake, so it could quite possibly take 5 minutes if he also had to answer other phone calls. It is also entirely possible that there was other, conflicting, traffic.
If you are so worried or upset, why didn't you phone and ask? The number's in the AIP
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FougaMagister: Oh you poor little thing! Even if the r/t was relatively quiet it doesn´t mean that the ATCO wasn´t busy. Late at night sectors are combined and staff reduced. He may just not at that particular moment have had time to co-ordinate your particular (there´s only me flying in the world) request because he was dealing with a bunch of other stuff. Obviously as soon as your a/c was in HIS airspace he gave you direct. Jeez!!!
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Working this Paris sector regularly, I guess you were flying between FL165 and 195? Your routing is on low airways, and this sector in Paris (TM) frequently hands off the plane to Brussels near MMD because it's very close to the border.
So if you need a direct, it's easier to check with Brussels, but other traffic may be conflicting north of your track with inbound jet traffic to LFPG/LFPO/LFOB, so they also have to coordinate with this other sector...plus with the military...
It really depends on the time of the day/night!
So if you need a direct, it's easier to check with Brussels, but other traffic may be conflicting north of your track with inbound jet traffic to LFPG/LFPO/LFOB, so they also have to coordinate with this other sector...plus with the military...
It really depends on the time of the day/night!
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I'm glad to ask whichever ACC can give me a short cut. My post was a question, no a rant. So for the benefit of those who (unlike Hotel Tango) are willing to provide constructive answers, I repeat: were are we as flight crew supposed to look for which sector to ask for a specific short cut? OK, we have the relevant Jepp en-route chart handy and open, but it's not always of much help in this respect - at night we sometimes get 300nm plus short cuts involving several ATC sectors in different countries. ATCOs may be applying letters of agreement between ACCs, but as flight crew we are not privy to them.
Time was about 0400Z on a Friday morning, so military activity was not an issue (NATO night MIL flying hadly ever takes place or continues after 0100Z, with the exception of the odd USAF "Reach" flight into Ramstein), and no NATO exercise NOTAMed either. We were at FL210 or 230 - can't quite remember which.
Thanks for the replies so far.
Cheers
Time was about 0400Z on a Friday morning, so military activity was not an issue (NATO night MIL flying hadly ever takes place or continues after 0100Z, with the exception of the odd USAF "Reach" flight into Ramstein), and no NATO exercise NOTAMed either. We were at FL210 or 230 - can't quite remember which.
Thanks for the replies so far.
Cheers
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I gave you a perfectly good and valid answer Fouga. And now I'll give you another: you don't need to ask us for a shortcut because if there's one available we'll give it to you!
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Hold your horses Hotel Tango...
The main issue was probably not a direct routing, but the attitude.
"did you ask xxx?" and "well, you should have!" is something I would not like to hear when visiting a doctor, or a dentist or, well, even a car dealer...
Direct is not a must, neither is a "self-evident" thing. But a simple "standby" or "standby for coordination" would be more appropriate. I'm sure the pilot would feel better, and would happily wait. Then, after 10 sec, if we're not busy, or after 2-3 min if we're busy, a "cleared direct to" or "unable to approve due to" is something that will prevent a pilot to become the OP here on PPRuNe.
Yes, pilots are constantly asking for directs, or weather at distant AD's, or higher levels. But why not?? I also ask pilots if they're able to increase speed, or rate of climb, or if able to take higher level, or accept visual approach (departure) - even if it is not the most economical or comfortable thing for them, it may help me a lot...
So, just a bit of good-will and professionalism.
The main issue was probably not a direct routing, but the attitude.
"did you ask xxx?" and "well, you should have!" is something I would not like to hear when visiting a doctor, or a dentist or, well, even a car dealer...
Direct is not a must, neither is a "self-evident" thing. But a simple "standby" or "standby for coordination" would be more appropriate. I'm sure the pilot would feel better, and would happily wait. Then, after 10 sec, if we're not busy, or after 2-3 min if we're busy, a "cleared direct to" or "unable to approve due to" is something that will prevent a pilot to become the OP here on PPRuNe.
Yes, pilots are constantly asking for directs, or weather at distant AD's, or higher levels. But why not?? I also ask pilots if they're able to increase speed, or rate of climb, or if able to take higher level, or accept visual approach (departure) - even if it is not the most economical or comfortable thing for them, it may help me a lot...
So, just a bit of good-will and professionalism.
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Now you're making me curious about which of my colleagues was doing the night shift last friday 
This particular shortcut from MMD or MEDOX direct to NOR requires several additional coordinations with 2 Paris sectors and 2 Langen sectors.
If the shortcut is approved before MEDOX, there's no extra call to make to the Langen sectors, because you will cross in the vicinity of ARCKY anyway.
If Paris gives you the shortcut, they have to coordinate internally between their own sectors, and we do not have to make any extra calls to both sectors you'll cross when going direct.
I suspect someone just wanted to be lazy on this early hour... But indeed, a 'negative' or 'standby' would have been the better reply...
This particular shortcut from MMD or MEDOX direct to NOR requires several additional coordinations with 2 Paris sectors and 2 Langen sectors.
If the shortcut is approved before MEDOX, there's no extra call to make to the Langen sectors, because you will cross in the vicinity of ARCKY anyway.
If Paris gives you the shortcut, they have to coordinate internally between their own sectors, and we do not have to make any extra calls to both sectors you'll cross when going direct.
I suspect someone just wanted to be lazy on this early hour... But indeed, a 'negative' or 'standby' would have been the better reply...
