What radar service do you require?
Thread Starter
What radar service do you require?
Departing from Bournemouth recently with an IFR plan to Spain, I was surprised to be told by the controller "IFR ends at FL60 - what radar service do you require?".
Can anybody explain what the correct answer is, and where can us non-UK pilots read up on such oddities before we go back!
Can anybody explain what the correct answer is, and where can us non-UK pilots read up on such oddities before we go back!
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Seems like a strange transmission. Are you sure they said "IFR"?
Being asked what service you require would suggest that you are about to leave CAS and therefore will no longer be under a Radar Control Service. The controller was asking you what service you would like outside CAS, i.e. Basic, Traffic, or Deconfliction Service.
Being asked what service you require would suggest that you are about to leave CAS and therefore will no longer be under a Radar Control Service. The controller was asking you what service you would like outside CAS, i.e. Basic, Traffic, or Deconfliction Service.
Last edited by Glamdring; 4th Sep 2012 at 10:13.
Thread Starter
Glamdring - now that you remind me (it was a few months ago) she probably did say "leaving controlled air space".
Nevertheless, it was a surprising transmission which I have not heard before, though admittedly I don't fly very often in UK.
Where can I read up on UK definitions of these different levels of radar service?
Nevertheless, it was a surprising transmission which I have not heard before, though admittedly I don't fly very often in UK.
Where can I read up on UK definitions of these different levels of radar service?
Last edited by Trim Stab; 4th Sep 2012 at 10:52.
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i.e. Basic, Traffic, or Deconfliction Service.
Other countries have one service - Flight Information Service (and radar derived too!).
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Depending on how much time you want to take to look into it then follow this link and I am sure you can find what your looking for.
NATS | AIS - Home
NATS | AIS - Home
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TS: Traffic Service and Deconfliction Service are the two radar services available outside controlled airspace. The latter gives you 5nm separation or 3000ft separation against unknown traffic; the former gives no separation, just information on any conflicting traffic. They're summarised in the UK AIP at ENR 1.6.1 and if you want more detail you can find it here.
NS
NS
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No. A Deconfliction service does not provide any form of seperation!
Under a deconfliction service the controller will aim to achieve a deconfliction minima but there are no guarantees, and the pilot remains ultimately responsible for his own separation.
Under a deconfliction service the controller will aim to achieve a deconfliction minima but there are no guarantees, and the pilot remains ultimately responsible for his own separation.
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Glamdring:
Quite right. Sloppy wording. Should be "aims to provide"
TS: if you're in uncontrolled airspace, the fact that you've filed an IFR flight plan makes no difference to your chances of hitting another aeroplane. In the UK I could file an IFR flight plan through Class G airspace and speak to no-one and receive no air traffic service whatsoever. I could be the guy coming directly at you.
NS
A Deconfliction service does not provide any form of seperation
TS: if you're in uncontrolled airspace, the fact that you've filed an IFR flight plan makes no difference to your chances of hitting another aeroplane. In the UK I could file an IFR flight plan through Class G airspace and speak to no-one and receive no air traffic service whatsoever. I could be the guy coming directly at you.
NS
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In the UK when flying in class G airspace the only requirement for IFR flight is to comply with the quadrantal rule when above the transition altltude.
Do not confuse IFR with IMC in the UK
Do not confuse IFR with IMC in the UK
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Because you might be in IMC?
Exactly - so why would anybody flying IFR want anything other than a Traffic service?
Exactly - so why would anybody flying IFR want anything other than a Traffic service?
Thread Starter
Reportyourlevel - thanks.
I'll be a little better prepared next time I'm in the UK, but I expect there will be yet another local idiosyncrasy to discombobulate me! UK is always an interesting but odd place to fly...
I'll be a little better prepared next time I'm in the UK, but I expect there will be yet another local idiosyncrasy to discombobulate me! UK is always an interesting but odd place to fly...
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Same thing happened to us going into Farnborough, when I queried it here, I was pointed towards this document.
GASCo - Revised Safety Sense Leaflet 08
You might find it interesting.
Mutt
GASCo - Revised Safety Sense Leaflet 08
You might find it interesting.
Mutt
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The ICAO definition of "radar contact" is:
Where does that state the level of service being provided? I suspect some ATCOs outside the UK may use it as a shorthand for the level of service, but I believe this to be incorrect.
The situation which exists when the radar position of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display.
Thread Starter
Where does that state the level of service being provided? I suspect some ATCOs outside the UK may use it as a shorthand for the level of service, but I believe this to be incorrect.
In Europe, if a controller says "radar contact" then the implication is that you are positively controlled. Why bother installing a radar if you are not going to use it to control aircraft? If they do not have radar contact they will tell you (implying that you are responsible for your own separation). Often they will also specifically tell you that you are responsible for your own separation until radar contact can be established. Nice and simple!
Hence it was quite odd to me to be flying in UK with radar coverage and be offered a "choice" of different services. As I said earlier, I would want the a service that prevents me crashing into other planes - why would I want anything less?
Last edited by Trim Stab; 5th Sep 2012 at 08:04.
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At most airport units in the UK the radar has not been installed in order to provide radar services to any Tom, Dick and Harry outside CAS. It has been installed to provide Radar Control Services to traffic to and from the airport inside CAS.
A controller may be too busy to provide you with a radar service outside CAS. If you do get a radar service from a non-LARS unit outside CAS, consider yourself lucky.
By asking what service you want, we can decide if it is within our ability to provide it in addition to our other tasks.
A controller may be too busy to provide you with a radar service outside CAS. If you do get a radar service from a non-LARS unit outside CAS, consider yourself lucky.
By asking what service you want, we can decide if it is within our ability to provide it in addition to our other tasks.
Last edited by Glamdring; 5th Sep 2012 at 08:29.
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I think I might have intended to post my earlier comment in the other thread running at the moment with similar content - mods, would it be appropriate to merge these?
My bold highlights the exact issue I have with this system. Nothing should be left to implication or assumption. Terms of service should be stated clearly and acknowledged - it is important to note that this may not be that which was requested.
On top of the issue that Glamdring raises, is the fact that radar coverage is not absolute. There are areas that I work traffic in where I have good SSR cover but no PSR cover - I cannot therefore guarantee that I can see all traffic as it may not be transponding. Further, there is no need for this traffic to call me (indeed, no need to be RTF equipped) as it is in class G airspace. Also, a lot of pilots (including those of some airlines on revenue flights, I might add) prefer the autonomy offered by a traffic service over a deconfliction service.
In Europe, if a controller says "radar contact" then the implication is that you are positively controlled.
On top of the issue that Glamdring raises, is the fact that radar coverage is not absolute. There are areas that I work traffic in where I have good SSR cover but no PSR cover - I cannot therefore guarantee that I can see all traffic as it may not be transponding. Further, there is no need for this traffic to call me (indeed, no need to be RTF equipped) as it is in class G airspace. Also, a lot of pilots (including those of some airlines on revenue flights, I might add) prefer the autonomy offered by a traffic service over a deconfliction service.
Last edited by reportyourlevel; 5th Sep 2012 at 10:45.