(UK) Etiquette on service termination
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You're right, it should have no relevance.
I hold a professional licence and sometimes use it as such for serious purposes, sometimes I'm just using an aeroplane to get from A to B for work or pleasure, and sometimes I'm just going flying because I enjoy going flying and can afford to.
The purpose of my flight should make no difference, save some very extreme circumstances (police / medical emergency, SAR), which don't apply to me personally, but I suppose potentially could.
Similarly, if I'm driving to see my mother in law, to work, or just because I fancy going for a drive because it's a nice day for it, should make no difference to how I'm treated by other road users, by the police, or by the various agencies that provide the road infrastructure.
At the end of the day I'm allowed to be there, the support I need is being paid for, and I'm entitled to use what's there.
G
I hold a professional licence and sometimes use it as such for serious purposes, sometimes I'm just using an aeroplane to get from A to B for work or pleasure, and sometimes I'm just going flying because I enjoy going flying and can afford to.
The purpose of my flight should make no difference, save some very extreme circumstances (police / medical emergency, SAR), which don't apply to me personally, but I suppose potentially could.
Similarly, if I'm driving to see my mother in law, to work, or just because I fancy going for a drive because it's a nice day for it, should make no difference to how I'm treated by other road users, by the police, or by the various agencies that provide the road infrastructure.
At the end of the day I'm allowed to be there, the support I need is being paid for, and I'm entitled to use what's there.
G
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Workinghard
Firstly, as Genghis points out, the term GA is very gray. Is in non OAT or CAT; is it purely hobbysits?
Are people who use aircraft for work (instructors, pipeline inspectors etc)part of the GA community, or commercial (becuse they earn from it), or both?
Not as straightforward as you are maybe trying to make out, and I certainly don't presume to say it is.
Genghis stated
Exactly. There are different categories of flight, but outside of them then it does not make any difference.
Point me to where I have ever said anything different!
However Soaringhigh650 has a history on PPrune of intimating that he should be allowed to fly wherever, whenever, in the UK, and that he should not have to pay for the privile(d)ge, other than renting his aircraft and fueling it. Service provision should be provided for nothing...
I'm afraid that does not work. As Genghis states, the purpose of his flight should make no difference - and it does not. However, as you well know, you have to fly in accordance with the rules of the airspace. If you can adhere to the rules/requirements of a particular piece of airspace, then it doesn't matter if you are an A380 or a PA28; whether you are flying for the hell of it, of carrying 500 passengers (i.e. 'GA' (for want of a better phrase) or CAT).
As an ATCO in the LTMA I will freely admit, as will any other ATCO, that an aircraft flying at 100Kts at FL90 is more of a pain to me than an A319, but that does not mean it does not get my full attention or the best service I can give it. In fact it is probably the very opposite. Because the aircraft is such a poor performer, it will probably end up getting more attention than the airliners!
If you look at other posts by Soaringhigh, you will see that as far as he is concerned the rules of the air in the UK are wrong... because it does not allow him to fly where he wants under VFR.
Unfortunately all aircraft cannot be accomodated to do what it wants, how it wants to, in every piece of airspace. Sometime you have to show a certain level of proficiency e.g. IR rating to be able to do that.
You can fly in the LTMA (for example as SH650 continually brings this up) in any aircraft you like, for any purpose, as long as you have the correct qualifications and adhere to the rules i.e. IFR Flight Plan. You will be afforded the same level of service as any other aircraft when you do so.
What was a reasonable question by Genghis has been sidetracked in part by Soaringhigh because he has an agenda. Whenever there is talk of Class G, he wades in with his 'service should be better and free' and 'I should be able to fly VFR in any UK airspace talk'. Unfortunately it seems he does not have an idea what the ramifications are of having no restrictions in certain airspace.
Firstly, as Genghis points out, the term GA is very gray. Is in non OAT or CAT; is it purely hobbysits?
Are people who use aircraft for work (instructors, pipeline inspectors etc)part of the GA community, or commercial (becuse they earn from it), or both?
Not as straightforward as you are maybe trying to make out, and I certainly don't presume to say it is.
Genghis stated
The purpose of my flight should make no difference, save some very extreme circumstances (police / medical emergency, SAR), which don't apply to me personally, but I suppose potentially could.
Point me to where I have ever said anything different!
However Soaringhigh650 has a history on PPrune of intimating that he should be allowed to fly wherever, whenever, in the UK, and that he should not have to pay for the privile(d)ge, other than renting his aircraft and fueling it. Service provision should be provided for nothing...
I'm afraid that does not work. As Genghis states, the purpose of his flight should make no difference - and it does not. However, as you well know, you have to fly in accordance with the rules of the airspace. If you can adhere to the rules/requirements of a particular piece of airspace, then it doesn't matter if you are an A380 or a PA28; whether you are flying for the hell of it, of carrying 500 passengers (i.e. 'GA' (for want of a better phrase) or CAT).
As an ATCO in the LTMA I will freely admit, as will any other ATCO, that an aircraft flying at 100Kts at FL90 is more of a pain to me than an A319, but that does not mean it does not get my full attention or the best service I can give it. In fact it is probably the very opposite. Because the aircraft is such a poor performer, it will probably end up getting more attention than the airliners!
If you look at other posts by Soaringhigh, you will see that as far as he is concerned the rules of the air in the UK are wrong... because it does not allow him to fly where he wants under VFR.
Unfortunately all aircraft cannot be accomodated to do what it wants, how it wants to, in every piece of airspace. Sometime you have to show a certain level of proficiency e.g. IR rating to be able to do that.
You can fly in the LTMA (for example as SH650 continually brings this up) in any aircraft you like, for any purpose, as long as you have the correct qualifications and adhere to the rules i.e. IFR Flight Plan. You will be afforded the same level of service as any other aircraft when you do so.
What was a reasonable question by Genghis has been sidetracked in part by Soaringhigh because he has an agenda. Whenever there is talk of Class G, he wades in with his 'service should be better and free' and 'I should be able to fly VFR in any UK airspace talk'. Unfortunately it seems he does not have an idea what the ramifications are of having no restrictions in certain airspace.
Last edited by anotherthing; 22nd Aug 2012 at 15:50.
Pedantry
I've agonised for an hour over this - but here goes!
'And your going places' - should be 'and you're( or - you are) going places'
There is no D in PRIVILEGE!
The least that intelligent people can do is use their own language correctly!
Back to my rocking chair!
BTW Who is Soaringhigh 650? Why does he criticise (can also be spelt with a z) UK ATC so often?
'And your going places' - should be 'and you're( or - you are) going places'
There is no D in PRIVILEGE!
The least that intelligent people can do is use their own language correctly!
Back to my rocking chair!
BTW Who is Soaringhigh 650? Why does he criticise (can also be spelt with a z
) UK ATC so often?
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Brian,
I did not bother to proof read before I posted, hence the 'd' (that and fat fingers).
I have not changed it, otherwise you're post would not have made sense in that regard, but I have placed the offending letter in parenthisis.
Sorry Gramps, you can get back to Countdown now
And yes, the 'You're' is intentional, you will see I have written this and not edited it after your correction!
I did not bother to proof read before I posted, hence the 'd' (that and fat fingers).
I have not changed it, otherwise you're post would not have made sense in that regard, but I have placed the offending letter in parenthisis.
Sorry Gramps, you can get back to Countdown now
And yes, the 'You're' is intentional, you will see I have written this and not edited it after your correction!
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Anotherthing,
Please read my post again. All I have stated was that UK en-route ATC already owns a huge amount of Class A airspace designed to exclude VFR flight.
Please read my post again. I can guarantee I can file a Eurocontrol acceptable route IFR but because it is Class A, the same route cannot be flown VFR. Why should one pay tens of thousands of pounds to get an IR to fly through some chunk of airspace?
I don't myself but I know people who do.
Firstly let me clarify that I am NOT wanting things for nothing. I can completely recognize and accept that there are costs which need to be recovered.
Whether you recover your costs through taxation on users, or through user fees, I favor the taxation method and do not favor for-profit ANSPs. But this is just a personal opinion.
Where I do have a grudge is when a pilot talks about an issue with a service, and then someone on this forum sits on their hands and replies with a tone as if to imply "GA does not pay anything and therefore deserves nothing" or "GA needs to pay $$$$$ to get x, y, z rating or install equipment x, y, z which costs $$$$$ to order to use our airspace" then I see these as attitude problems that I CANNOT accept.
If HOWEVER somoene even took the initiative to say that they're listening, and note such things down for future improvements when funding does become available, then that would be a good start in the right direction.
As you're someone who claims to be in the know, why don't you tell us what makes the UK particuarly different to heavily congested airspaces in Germany, Benelux, France or Class B areas in the USA?
Where is the "attitude" against developing higher level VFR corridors and routes coming from?
1. I do not...
2 VFR
4 but are you stating that you get charged for flying OCAS?
you want to do something that is over and above basic needs for living, for example flying, why should you not pay for it?
Whether you recover your costs through taxation on users, or through user fees, I favor the taxation method and do not favor for-profit ANSPs. But this is just a personal opinion.
Where I do have a grudge is when a pilot talks about an issue with a service, and then someone on this forum sits on their hands and replies with a tone as if to imply "GA does not pay anything and therefore deserves nothing" or "GA needs to pay $$$$$ to get x, y, z rating or install equipment x, y, z which costs $$$$$ to order to use our airspace" then I see these as attitude problems that I CANNOT accept.
If HOWEVER somoene even took the initiative to say that they're listening, and note such things down for future improvements when funding does become available, then that would be a good start in the right direction.
Unfortunately it seems he does not have an idea what the ramifications are of having no restrictions in certain airspace.
Where is the "attitude" against developing higher level VFR corridors and routes coming from?
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Soaringhigh, you do realise you should be aiming at the CAA rather than NATS, don't you?
Your issue appears to be with the airspace and restrictions placed upon aircraft/crew because of its classification. ATC merely carry out the procedures according to CAP493 and CAP393.
It's almost as if there should be a department somewhere in some official authority in the civil aviation industry that sets, and monitors the implementation of, policy regarding airspace. Perhaps it might even direct airspace policy.
Oh, hang on.........
Your issue appears to be with the airspace and restrictions placed upon aircraft/crew because of its classification. ATC merely carry out the procedures according to CAP493 and CAP393.
It's almost as if there should be a department somewhere in some official authority in the civil aviation industry that sets, and monitors the implementation of, policy regarding airspace. Perhaps it might even direct airspace policy.
Oh, hang on.........
Last edited by Gonzo; 22nd Aug 2012 at 20:48.
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Soaringhigh, you do realise you should be aiming at the CAA rather than NATS, don't you?
Your issue appears to be with the airspace and restrictions placed upon aircraft/crew because of its classification. ATC merely carry out the procedures according to CAP493 and CAP393.
It's almost as if there should be a department somewhere in some official authority in the civil aviation industry that sets, and monitors the implementation of, policy regarding airspace. Perhaps it might even direct airspace policy.
Oh, hang on.........
Your issue appears to be with the airspace and restrictions placed upon aircraft/crew because of its classification. ATC merely carry out the procedures according to CAP493 and CAP393.
It's almost as if there should be a department somewhere in some official authority in the civil aviation industry that sets, and monitors the implementation of, policy regarding airspace. Perhaps it might even direct airspace policy.
Oh, hang on.........
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Where I do have a grudge is when a pilot talks about an issue with a service, and then someone on this forum sits on their hands and replies with a tone as if to imply "GA does not pay anything and therefore deserves nothing"
In the OP's situation, in all likelihood the controllers at the non-LARS regional airport are employed, either directly by the airport or by a contractor, to provide services to aircraft inbound to or outbound from that airport, and to aircraft wishing to transit the airspace associated with the airport. Nothing else. If you are passing nearby, you may be lucky and get a great service, or you may be unlucky.
The point is, anything you get from a non-LARS unit has to be regarded as a freebie and taken with the knowledge that you are at the very bottom of that unit's list of priorities. It's not that the controllers don't want to give you a seamless ATSOCAS experience - in the main we take professional pride in doing our best for everyone. But, these days more than ever, some of our employers are very clear indeed that freebies to non-paying customers are not what they want us concentrating on.
That's the way it is, this is what informs the responses that the OP had to his question. The joined-up radar service that you want could exist in this country if there was a massive reordering and nationalisation of the ATC infrastructure, and a way to pay for it all could be devised, but that's a matter you should be taking up with the government and the CAA.
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But then you get lots of complaints from ATC if you don't get a service and remain unknown traffic.
Apparently that is bad airmanship. The often quoted reason for doing this is if they arn' going to help me why should I help them. Which I must admit has been my view with some units who view a basic service as a license to control you in class G.
Apparently that is bad airmanship. The often quoted reason for doing this is if they arn' going to help me why should I help them. Which I must admit has been my view with some units who view a basic service as a license to control you in class G.
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Hi Genghis, are you still alive?...I said your post was a good read, and I think it is healthy and proper to debate these things. To assist in flight planning there is a useful LARS chart in the AIP.....try page ENR 6-1-6-3. There is a description given on page ENR 1-6-3-3 etc.
I'm no computer expert, but if you use NATS | AIS and then hit the IAIP button it seems to give you everything by way of the index.
regards.
I'm no computer expert, but if you use NATS | AIS and then hit the IAIP button it seems to give you everything by way of the index.
regards.
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If you are passing nearby, you may be lucky and get a great service, or you may be unlucky.
No issue here if you have to focus on certain traffic.
But I think the OP was referring to en-route services forpopup IFR flights.
In this case we (in the US) will never be dumped because we would file a IFR plan mid-air and then put onto IFR frequencies to get a continuous service for the rest of the way. Note that workload goes up quite a bit in the cockpit when manually flown in IMC which explains the OP's 'stress'. The last thing pilots want to face is being blocked by controlled airspace coming down or squeezing us into narrow gaps while the ground is going up.
Soaringhigh, you do realise you should be aiming at the CAA rather than NATS, don't you?
Soaringhigh650
Please indulge me! Let me tell you a little story.
A few years ago the lovely Mrs B48N and I thought we would go and live in France. 'What' said No1 son, who incidentally lived in France for a year while doing the Test Pilot Course as an RAF pilot on exchange with the Frogs,'Dad will never put up with the French and the way they do things!'.
This made me think, so I went there with a changed open outlook on life. After all,if for instance, I said to a restauranteur 'Why do you serve cheese before dessert? Everyone knows the cheese course comes last and is served with a fine glass of port!'. He would have said 'Monsieur,If you do not like the way we do things in France,may I suggest you go back to your own country'.
In other words, 'When in Rome do as the Romans do!'.
May I respectfully suggest that if you do not like the way we do things in the UK, you stay away. The UK GA fraternity is capable of fighting their corner without your help!
A few years ago the lovely Mrs B48N and I thought we would go and live in France. 'What' said No1 son, who incidentally lived in France for a year while doing the Test Pilot Course as an RAF pilot on exchange with the Frogs,'Dad will never put up with the French and the way they do things!'.
This made me think, so I went there with a changed open outlook on life. After all,if for instance, I said to a restauranteur 'Why do you serve cheese before dessert? Everyone knows the cheese course comes last and is served with a fine glass of port!'. He would have said 'Monsieur,If you do not like the way we do things in France,may I suggest you go back to your own country'.
In other words, 'When in Rome do as the Romans do!'.
May I respectfully suggest that if you do not like the way we do things in the UK, you stay away. The UK GA fraternity is capable of fighting their corner without your help!
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 23rd Aug 2012 at 11:18. Reason: to delete a space
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SH, but you are aiming your ire at ATCOs, who have to cope with the rules they are given. You continue to do so even when it's pointed out that the ATCOs don't set the rules or airspace classification, it's the CAA DAP who do so. Of course, contacting DAP to discuss and put your experiences and point of view to them is slightly less fun than baiting ATCOs.
Eradicate pompous attitudes all you want, that's not going to change the Worthing CTA to Class B.
Eradicate pompous attitudes all you want, that's not going to change the Worthing CTA to Class B.
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Mmmh,
Unless I am mistaken I have been in a similar situation as that outlined and been unceremoniously dumped by the controller at a really awkward time in the cockpit although thankfully two crew, I hate to think how it would affect a single pilot IFR guy.
For all the ATC hoods out there procrastinating; I suppose the reverse would be pitching up at your zone boundary and calling finals totally unannounced, how would that flick your switch with a busy traffic pattern?
If you would like a little notice of the arrival then I guess what is being got at here is that an "expect to lose the service in 5 miles" call would go a long way to allowing the single pilot IFR guy to have his ducks in a row and perhaps avoid the possibility of disorientation in cloud when the call comes.
Flippant I know but safety first and all that,
HEDP
Unless I am mistaken I have been in a similar situation as that outlined and been unceremoniously dumped by the controller at a really awkward time in the cockpit although thankfully two crew, I hate to think how it would affect a single pilot IFR guy.
For all the ATC hoods out there procrastinating; I suppose the reverse would be pitching up at your zone boundary and calling finals totally unannounced, how would that flick your switch with a busy traffic pattern?
If you would like a little notice of the arrival then I guess what is being got at here is that an "expect to lose the service in 5 miles" call would go a long way to allowing the single pilot IFR guy to have his ducks in a row and perhaps avoid the possibility of disorientation in cloud when the call comes.
Flippant I know but safety first and all that,
HEDP
"expect to lose the service in 5 miles"
I suppose the reverse would be pitching up at your zone boundary and calling finals totally unannounced
2 s