Late clearance as you steam towards controlled airspace...

[niceday2700classic]

Hello,

Just wanted to ask something.

On the weekend I was heading south west over Basingstoke, on a clearance from Farnborough to transit the temporary class D that they have for the Olympics. If I want to keep the same altitude as I continue, I will need clearance through one of Solent's temporary class D blocks.

The info published on the Olympics chart that came with the 2012 chart says that Farnborough would control the piece of Solent class D (during their operating hours) that I wanted to transit. Outside their operating hours it would revert to Solent Radar.

So I ask Farnborough if he can clear me through the Solent section too, he says negative if you want to transit Solent please call them. So ok, G-XY request change to Solent Radar on whatever..... am told to squawk 7000 and freecall enroute....

Call up Solent, and because I've not been handed over I'm steaming towards his airspace unannounced, so once he's ready I pass my full details and request for transit pronto. He gives me a squawk, then asks me to confirm altitude. At this point I'm not cleared and I'm 20secs from infringing his airspace, so I initiate a descent and in response to his request say "G-XY was 3,000ft now descending 2,400 feet to remain OCAS unless we're cleared?"

What I get back is a very stroppy "You WILL get clearance, I'm just verifying your position & altitude".

So....

What was I supposed to do? Not descend and assume clearance would be forthcoming? Just report my altitude and not tell him why I was descending? Turn back? This "you WILL get clearance" thing - how was I supposed to know he planned to clear me?

Brings me to a wider point regarding transits. Often enough, I've requested a transit in plenty of time, and I'm usually just told "Traffic service, squawk 1234, QNH 1021". Then I chug towards the boundary, with no indication from the controller as to whether he/she plans to clear me or not. Clearance is usually given at the last possible moment, but if it isn't going to be given then it'd be nice to know a little earlier so that there is time to climb/descend or so that the route-around isn't so convoluted.

Now I know the controller can't give me a firm answer until I'm there, but some sort of "should be ok, will let you know as you approach the boundary" would make things much easier.

And why no handover? Surely when passing from one adjoining block of CAS to another which necessitates a change of controller, this could/should be coordinated. Farnborough knew my route...

[jc2065]

I probably would have just maintained my Alt and done a couple of 2 minute orbits. That way your position stays roughly the same and you don't mess up your nav (easy to revise) and fuel planning by having to throttle back then climb again once cleared (if you were planning to that level of detail that is!).

That's just me though...

[ZOOKER]

The phraseology 'G-XY remain outside controlled airspace, airways time check.......' springs to mind.

Did you file a flight plan for this trip?

[niceday2700classic]

Yes, but only because of the R112.

[Standard Noise]

Simple, as jc2065 said, you orbit and remain clear until the ATCO gives you a crossing clearance.

Then I chug towards the boundary, with no indication from the controller as to whether he/she plans to clear me or not.

Now I know the controller can't give me a firm answer until I'm there, but some sort of Brings me to a wider point regarding transits. Often enough, I've requested a transit in plenty of time, and I'm usually just told "Traffic service, squawk 1234, QNH 1021". Then I chug towards the boundary, with no indication from the controller as to whether he/she plans to clear me or not. Clearance is usually given at the last possible moment, but if it isn't going to be given then it'd be nice to know a little earlier so that there is time to climb/descend or so that the route-around isn't so convoluted.

Now I know the controller can't give me a firm answer until I'm there, but some sort of "should be ok, will let you know as you approach the boundary" would make things much easier.

And why no handover? Surely when passing from one adjoining block of CAS to another which necessitates a change of controller, this could/should be coordinated. Farnborough knew my route..., will let you know as you approach the boundary" would make things much easier.

And why no handover? Surely when passing from one adjoining block of CAS to another which necessitates a change of controller, this could/should be coordinated. Farnborough knew my route...

On the first part, he/she may be co-ordinating with a colleague beside them who controls the airspace and IFR traffic therein but is spending their time getting you the crossing clearance as soon as they can so as not to disrupt your requested route.

Secondly, 'should be ok' - why would he say that, if the CAS is under the control of another ATCO, nothing is guaranteed. Just stay OCAS and if you're close to the boundary then get ready to orbit until you get the crossing clearance.

Thirdly, this isn't uncommon, many units don't have the time to make or take calls for details to be passed about transit traffic. If you were that close to Solent's zone then that call may well have just elongated the process and you'd have ended up orbiting outside Solent's airspace anyway, or matbe Farnborough tried but Solent were too busy to answer the phone. It does happen.

[Finals19]

Solent controllers have the un-enviable task of controlling IFR commercial traffic within the class D segment (especially N, N/E of Southampton airport) and approving GA crossing clearances at the same time.

As Standard Noise said, he/she may have been trying to coordinate your requested clearance with a fellow ATCO.

Another problem that often arises is a protracted exchange of RT calls for a crossing clearance just as commercial traffic is being vectored for approach. Failing to further clear the commercial traffic down the approach (especially in the vertical sense around SOU) due to other RT exchanges can result in traffic being left high (thereby delaying proceedings due to extra track miles) or (worst case) a go around and re-vector.

If you're asked to remain OCAS or standby, it may well be due to this and the need to balance / prioritise the controller workload.

[chevvron]

If this is so, then Solent must 'split' the task into 'Zone' and 'approach' or 'director'; they have the radar consoles so why not?

[Ninja Controller]

I had this today. Approaching Stoney Cross, direct SAM at 5000ft awaiting a zone crossing I asked Bournemouth to coordinate 30 miles ago. I got a crossing clearance just as I was about to enter the orbit.

However, 30 seconds after I entered the zone, the RT loading went through the roof. The controller was working very hard and from the vectors I received, it was obvious that I was right in the middle of all the inbounds trying to get down and all the outbounds trying to get up.

The chap did a great job and I'm very thankful for his hard work. Had I not had any controlling experience I probably would have thought of the late clearance as a pain in the rear. What pilots sometimes forget is that sometimes an ATCO does most of his talking on the telephone rather than the radio, coordinating all the random things we may want to do and keeping us separated from the traffic they get paid to shift.

In case the controller concerned is reading this, thanks for a job well done

[Hooligan Bill]

If this is so, then Solent must 'split' the task into 'Zone' and 'approach' or 'director'; they have the radar consoles so why not?

Radar consoles need people sitting behind them, and there may lie the problem.

[betterfromabove]

Orbits are Your Friend.

As pilots, we don't always know what's going on at the other end of the line!

Working Solent is certainly quite challenging jobs at times it seems...from both ends. My experience is that they are really helpful, providing you sound as though you know what you're doing, pick a sensible trajectory across their zone wrt their runway orientation and are ready to standby (orbit...) for a couple of minutes.

Plus, have a Plan B if they're too busy to accept.

[WorkingHard]

Ninja - "the traffic they get paid to shift" is a phrase that seems a little inappropriate since they are actually paid to control the airspace in which they operate and are required so to do. If for example there is any case where vfr traffic is seen to be excluded unneccesarily then they can and are called to account to explain why. CAS is granted on the basis of equal access but of course the controller must decide on priorities. If a block of CAS is underused (not the case here of course) because there are insufficient controllers rather than airspace saturation then the controlling authority can be required to employ more controllers. No I am not an expert nor a controller so I asked the appropriate authority for a definitive answer.
happy flying!

[bookworm]

What I get back is a very stroppy "You WILL get clearance, I'm just verifying your position & altitude".

It's not often a good idea to read too much into the tone of voice of someone with a high workload over RT. I can think of more than a few occasions when an inexperienced ATCO might have thought that I was being "stroppy" when in fact I was just up to my eyeballs in stuff to think about and didn't have time to consider how the tone of my communication would be interpreted by the listener.

[pol1whiskey]

When i receive Late zone transists / MATZ penetration I usually simply orbit before receiving onward clearance. Usually works....

Pol1W

[Ninja Controller]

Originally Posted by WorkingHard

...If for example there is any case where vfr traffic is seen to be excluded unneccesarily ...

Indeed, are there is the operative word. Unnecessarily. I don't think that is something that any of the Solent controllers can reasonably be accused of.

My phrase may not have been the most diplomatic but then neither was my point. The traffic inside controlled airspace, flying airways is always going to take priority over VFR transits. That always seems to rub some people up the wrong way but it's a simple fact. That's why pilots need to have alternative plans and not rely on getting exactly what they want in this case.

Sometimes plans have to change. It's what makes flying interesting

[WorkingHard]

Ninja
You are correct of course in that controllers have to prioritise and your phraseology was perhaps shall we say unfortunate in that those with less experience may get the wrong view of CAS and access. Our UK controllers are generally superb and do a good job for all the traffic for which they are responsible. That being so then I am sure some would not like the implication that GA, in all its' forms, would not be given access to CAS subject to airspace loading.
BTW what about the IFR traffic in CAS that is not flying airways, where do they come in your list of priorities?

[Ninja Controller]

Originally Posted by WorkingHard

BTW what about the IFR traffic in CAS that is not flying airways, where do they come in your list of priorities?

If it is already inside controlled airspace, it is of equal priority to all other traffic in there, unless there is traffic with a higher flight priority category. If it's outside wanting to join, it's prioritised just like VFR traffic is. The only difference in that scenario being that it may be easier to separate IFR traffic from everything else hence a lower overall workload compared to VFR traffic or vice-versa.

I must mention that I don't control any Class D control zones though and it has been a while since I did.

[ShyTorque]

Enter without the clearance, you'll surely get the highest priority...