PAR approach guide?
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PAR approach guide?
Im administering some PAR approach training in the sim and wanted to review PAR approaches procedures from an ATC perspective.
Can anyone kindly provide a PAR approach guide ?
thanks in advance,
TMIS
Can anyone kindly provide a PAR approach guide ?
thanks in advance,
TMIS
Even during my PAR course at Shawbury, we didn't get much written course material, but then I had a civil licence and was just there to undertake an 'approved course' in order to add it to my Approach Radar rating, rather than the full Joint ATC course where PAR is an integral part.
What do you need, phraseology?, technique? F'rinstance I'm told there's even differences between RAF and RN procedures (eg RAF give a minimum 2 deg heading change whereas RN give minimum 1 deg).
Some autopilot's/FMS' don't like such small heading changes; I often found that giving a 2 deg change, nothing happened, so I'd give another 2 deg, and still nothing happened, but on giving a further 2 deg, suddenly the autopilot, having been given 5 deg or more, would react with all 6 deg and thus would over correct!
Discussing this with a bizjet pilot, he said he always recommended a PAR be flown manually with the yaw damper de-selected.
What do you need, phraseology?, technique? F'rinstance I'm told there's even differences between RAF and RN procedures (eg RAF give a minimum 2 deg heading change whereas RN give minimum 1 deg).
Some autopilot's/FMS' don't like such small heading changes; I often found that giving a 2 deg change, nothing happened, so I'd give another 2 deg, and still nothing happened, but on giving a further 2 deg, suddenly the autopilot, having been given 5 deg or more, would react with all 6 deg and thus would over correct!
Discussing this with a bizjet pilot, he said he always recommended a PAR be flown manually with the yaw damper de-selected.
Last edited by chevvron; 11th Aug 2012 at 23:44.
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Thanks for the reply Chevron. I guess im looking for any official documentation / training guide that would help in giving realistic procedural training to pilots. For example.. Lost Comm, Missed Approach instructions, proper terminology etc...
Found this link on FAA's website which is of some help...
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...c/atc0512.html
Found this link on FAA's website which is of some help...
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...c/atc0512.html
I was with Chevvron doing the PAR course at RAF Shawbury (we were civilians providing ATC at military test establishments) and I can concur that we had no notes. It would be worth contacting the RAF ATC School at RAF Shawbury,as I guess their own students get training guides.
Your location sounds close to Sangley Point - landed there once in an RAF C130.
Your location sounds close to Sangley Point - landed there once in an RAF C130.
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About the only document advice to pilots in the UK for PAR's is this document.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL26.pdf
Alot of the instrument rating schools have there own school notes but there is nothing much offical.
I would agree that you need to fly them manually otherwise the automatics are to coarse. For a 1-2 degree heading change you would just squeeze the rudder you wouldn't be rolling.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL26.pdf
Alot of the instrument rating schools have there own school notes but there is nothing much offical.
I would agree that you need to fly them manually otherwise the automatics are to coarse. For a 1-2 degree heading change you would just squeeze the rudder you wouldn't be rolling.
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In my original Manual of ATC Part1 , I have 4 pages of instructions on PAR dated 31 August 1967.
That was just about the time they stopped PAR at Gatwick and I never got to do PAR myself.
Phrases like
"You are left/right/well left/going left/right of track"
" (Displacement Information)..advise you turn left/right...degrees"
Later in the approach
"( Displacement Information)..advise you overshoot/climb immediately etc"
Glide path Info was passed like this
"You are above/well above/going above the glidepath....feet too high"
"You are below/well below/going below the glidepath..feet too low"
And if the pilot did not adjust his descent
"Displacement Information...Advise you maintain you present height/climb immediately etc"
Then there were various Overshoot instructions according to circumstances. No missed approaches back then
I knew that old book would be handy one day.
That was just about the time they stopped PAR at Gatwick and I never got to do PAR myself.
Phrases like
"You are left/right/well left/going left/right of track"
" (Displacement Information)..advise you turn left/right...degrees"
Later in the approach
"( Displacement Information)..advise you overshoot/climb immediately etc"
Glide path Info was passed like this
"You are above/well above/going above the glidepath....feet too high"
"You are below/well below/going below the glidepath..feet too low"
And if the pilot did not adjust his descent
"Displacement Information...Advise you maintain you present height/climb immediately etc"
Then there were various Overshoot instructions according to circumstances. No missed approaches back then
I knew that old book would be handy one day.
Do a search for AP3357. This was the radar AP IIRC which had chapters on PAR. May help. I think it only covered MPN11/CPN4, ACR7 and SLA3b&c. Rather ancient. (Like me!)
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Get Me Some Traffic
Do a search for AP3357. This was the radar AP IIRC which had chapters on PAR. May help. I think it only covered MPN11/CPN4, ACR7 and SLA3b&c. Rather ancient. (Like me!)
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ICAO WORDS
For the international perspective take a look at PANS/ATM (Doc 4444) 8.9.6 and 8.9.7 and 12.4.2.4 and 12.4.2.5.
My instructor notes from the days as the GCA instructor at RAAF CFS "C" flight (the predecessor to SATC) have long since turned to dust but most of the phraseology and procedures are much the same as the references above.
Ah, those days of min fuel, limited panel, no hyd and no left turn - how I do not miss them. The days of using the Quad to only train procedures and as the instructor having to manipulate the controls between the legs of the students - some courses were better than others, depending on the mix of students.
MJG
My instructor notes from the days as the GCA instructor at RAAF CFS "C" flight (the predecessor to SATC) have long since turned to dust but most of the phraseology and procedures are much the same as the references above.
Ah, those days of min fuel, limited panel, no hyd and no left turn - how I do not miss them. The days of using the Quad to only train procedures and as the instructor having to manipulate the controls between the legs of the students - some courses were better than others, depending on the mix of students.
MJG
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Cap 413 in the Mil section has a good little guide. If not, have a look at MMATM - Manual of Military Air Traffic Management and RA3000 series which superseded JSP55x series.
http://www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/mmatm.pdf
All have bits about it in some detail.
http://www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/mmatm.pdf
All have bits about it in some detail.
Last edited by dagowly; 22nd Jan 2013 at 08:00.
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Always used to be a giggle flying a PAR with the occasional USAF controller
"You are 4ft above the glide, adjust your rate of descent" "On the glide, 10 ft right of centreline". We knew it was BS but it tickled.
I was occasionally allowed to 'do' PARs by kind controllers when I was Duty Pilot in the tower, CAVOK and by agreement, of course, but it was AMAZINGLY difficult to keep up the patter. Definitely an acquired skill which would put any market trader to shame. I cannot recall the break in transmission time we were allowed as 'receivers' before we went round, but it was not long - 10 seconds?
"You are 4ft above the glide, adjust your rate of descent" "On the glide, 10 ft right of centreline". We knew it was BS but it tickled.
I was occasionally allowed to 'do' PARs by kind controllers when I was Duty Pilot in the tower, CAVOK and by agreement, of course, but it was AMAZINGLY difficult to keep up the patter. Definitely an acquired skill which would put any market trader to shame.
I cannot recall the break in transmission time we were allowed as 'receivers' before we went round, but it was not long - 10 seconds?
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There was one old boy at one SE Mil base
Smidge up, Smidge down. Links a bit , Richts a bit.
All done on CAVOK days when it was requested for controller currency.
Then there was the cavok days when they were training a newbie and the ex lightning jock in the LHS would go Right when they had requested left etc and when challanged said he was inverted.
Next day Mr links Richts asked us to comfirm the blue bit was up and the brown bit was down.
It really is a cracking service for pilots and I hope that we do retain at least some coverage in the UK.
Smidge up, Smidge down. Links a bit , Richts a bit.
All done on CAVOK days when it was requested for controller currency.
Then there was the cavok days when they were training a newbie and the ex lightning jock in the LHS would go Right when they had requested left etc and when challanged said he was inverted.
Next day Mr links Richts asked us to comfirm the blue bit was up and the brown bit was down.
It really is a cracking service for pilots and I hope that we do retain at least some coverage in the UK.
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Chevvron is correct. JSP 318A was superseded by JSP 552, which as been replaced by MMATM (Military Manual of Air Traffic Management).
NorthSouth's link no longer works as the government have changed their web addresses
, but the document can be found here: http://www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/mmatm.pdf
Chapter 24 is the area to start looking, specifically pages 212 and 218-224.
I hope this helps.
MM
NorthSouth's link no longer works as the government have changed their web addresses
, but the document can be found here: http://www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/mmatm.pdfChapter 24 is the area to start looking, specifically pages 212 and 218-224.
I hope this helps.
MM
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I used to give PAR approaches several years back, there's no need to get real technical about it if your using the display in the average flight sim, you'll basically give the missed approach and lost com procedures prior to intercepting the G/S.
I'd use 10 degree turns until the aircraft is pretty much on course, then I'd go down to 5 degree turns, just before reaching the profile, advise "approaching glidepath, begin descent".
Phraseology - on glidepath, going below, slightly below glidepath, etc., ASR's and no gyros can also be done for practice.
Cheers
I'd use 10 degree turns until the aircraft is pretty much on course, then I'd go down to 5 degree turns, just before reaching the profile, advise "approaching glidepath, begin descent".
Phraseology - on glidepath, going below, slightly below glidepath, etc., ASR's and no gyros can also be done for practice.
Cheers
