London Heliroutes
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London Heliroutes
Hi there
As a Heli Pilot using the Helilanes, I wondered if you could answer some questions for me.
1. I was cleared from Cookham H10 to Gutteridge. While on route to Gutteridge Northolt inform me of an aircraft inbound and said remain at 1500ft in case the aircraft does a go around. He then asked if I was happy with 500ft separation. If I had said NO, would would have happened?
2. If while in the Heliroutes a controller asks me if I am happy with visual separation, what would happen if I said NO?
3. Radio failure: If I was cleared to enter the zone for routing H10 - H4 - Isle of Dogs - Return and was cleared as far as Gutteridge. If I had a radio failure on route to Gutteridge, is the procedure is to hold at Gutteridge for 3 mins and then continue my route at maximum operating altitude or is Gutteridge my only clearance and I would have to backtrack? Have I understood this correctly? We get held at London Bridge if City are in use so what would happen in this case?
4. Has anyone experienced a pilot with a radio failure and in their opinion did he follow the rules correctly?
Thanks in advance
Steve
As a Heli Pilot using the Helilanes, I wondered if you could answer some questions for me.
1. I was cleared from Cookham H10 to Gutteridge. While on route to Gutteridge Northolt inform me of an aircraft inbound and said remain at 1500ft in case the aircraft does a go around. He then asked if I was happy with 500ft separation. If I had said NO, would would have happened?
2. If while in the Heliroutes a controller asks me if I am happy with visual separation, what would happen if I said NO?
3. Radio failure: If I was cleared to enter the zone for routing H10 - H4 - Isle of Dogs - Return and was cleared as far as Gutteridge. If I had a radio failure on route to Gutteridge, is the procedure is to hold at Gutteridge for 3 mins and then continue my route at maximum operating altitude or is Gutteridge my only clearance and I would have to backtrack? Have I understood this correctly? We get held at London Bridge if City are in use so what would happen in this case?
4. Has anyone experienced a pilot with a radio failure and in their opinion did he follow the rules correctly?
Thanks in advance
Steve
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Steve,
1. RAF Northolt, being military controllers are allowed to use 500ft separation in their radar manoeuvring area, rather than the 1000ft/3nm separation applied elsewhere in the London Control Zone. If you were not willing to accept 500ft separation then I suspect you would have been held off at a location that provided 1000ft or 3nm separation from conflicting traffic.
2. Visual separation can be applied between two helicopters on the same heliroute provided the visibility is 6km+, the pilots agree and traffic information is passed. If a pilot is unable to accept visual separation, then another routeing would be given, e.g. southbound H7 against traffic eastbound H3, the pilot would be held at a holding point separated from the other helicopter until it had passed, or ultimately a clearance would be refused due to the requirement to provide standard separation.
3. Your interpretation is correct. Hold at any intermediate clearance limit for 3 minutes and then proceed as per the notified routeing. Also squawk A7600 or A7700 if there is another emergency. In practice, I would expect you to perhaps land at Battersea to rectify the problem and talk to ATC there, before proceeding to the I.O.D and back, because you are going to cause a great deal of disruption to London City traffic. If you are holding at London Bridge and get a radio failure, although the 3 minute rule applies in practice it would be prudent to reverse the route at that point after squawking A7600, rather than continuing to the I.O.D.
4. I have never experienced a helicopter with a radio failure, although we practice this eventuality in the simulator.
Hope this helps.
1. RAF Northolt, being military controllers are allowed to use 500ft separation in their radar manoeuvring area, rather than the 1000ft/3nm separation applied elsewhere in the London Control Zone. If you were not willing to accept 500ft separation then I suspect you would have been held off at a location that provided 1000ft or 3nm separation from conflicting traffic.
2. Visual separation can be applied between two helicopters on the same heliroute provided the visibility is 6km+, the pilots agree and traffic information is passed. If a pilot is unable to accept visual separation, then another routeing would be given, e.g. southbound H7 against traffic eastbound H3, the pilot would be held at a holding point separated from the other helicopter until it had passed, or ultimately a clearance would be refused due to the requirement to provide standard separation.
3. Your interpretation is correct. Hold at any intermediate clearance limit for 3 minutes and then proceed as per the notified routeing. Also squawk A7600 or A7700 if there is another emergency. In practice, I would expect you to perhaps land at Battersea to rectify the problem and talk to ATC there, before proceeding to the I.O.D and back, because you are going to cause a great deal of disruption to London City traffic. If you are holding at London Bridge and get a radio failure, although the 3 minute rule applies in practice it would be prudent to reverse the route at that point after squawking A7600, rather than continuing to the I.O.D.
4. I have never experienced a helicopter with a radio failure, although we practice this eventuality in the simulator.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the reply.
I guess it would be better to leave the zone at the earliest opportunity and save you the workload.
Just to clarify one thing. If I ask for H10 up to the I O D's but I am only cleared to Northolt, I have to turn back after 3 mins since I have no onward clearance. Is this correct?
I guess it would be better to leave the zone at the earliest opportunity and save you the workload.
Just to clarify one thing. If I ask for H10 up to the I O D's but I am only cleared to Northolt, I have to turn back after 3 mins since I have no onward clearance. Is this correct?
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Being SATCO Northolt, I can confirm the comments made by ATCO Two. What's more, whilst in the Northolt Radar Manoevring Area (NRMA), military controllers may allow SVFR traffic to take visual seperation on all Northolt IFR traffic. In other words, you can be handled as if you are SVFR within Class D airspace.
Confused? - Join the club.
PS. Regarding your RT failure question, if you went to Gutteridge and held there squawking any of the emergency codes we may get quite twitchy.
Confused? - Join the club.
PS. Regarding your RT failure question, if you went to Gutteridge and held there squawking any of the emergency codes we may get quite twitchy.
Last edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO; 4th Apr 2002 at 16:06.
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Whipping,
Don't you mean "as if you are VFR within Class D airspace"?
WF.
Being SATCO Northolt, I can confirm the comments made by ATCO Two. What's more, whilst in the Northolt Radar Manoevring Area (NRMA), military controllers may allow SVFR traffic to take visual seperation on all Northolt IFR traffic. In other words, you can be handled as if you are SVFR within Class D airspace.
WF.
OK, let's see if I've got this sorted. The Northolt RMA is within the Heathrow CTZ, and therefore Class A. You cannot fly VFR in a Class A CTZ, hence a SVFR clearance is mandatory for all non-IFR traffic. Standard separation applies to SVFR flights.
However , within the NRMA, military controllers may deem SVFR flights to be VFR, for the purposes of separation? Splendid!!
Only we Brits.........
However , within the NRMA, military controllers may deem SVFR flights to be VFR, for the purposes of separation? Splendid!!
Only we Brits.........
Last edited by spekesoftly; 4th Apr 2002 at 23:42.
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Speaksoftly, that's about it. What's more, quite a few ac (police helis, medevac etc) are, under certain circumstances, allowed to take visual seperation throughout the whole CTR.
My vote is for changing the airspace classification.
I've been doing the job for a couple of years now and I still get confused!!
PS. How can somebody provide Radar Control in Class A airspace but not be responsible for terrain clearance?
My vote is for changing the airspace classification.
I've been doing the job for a couple of years now and I still get confused!!
PS. How can somebody provide Radar Control in Class A airspace but not be responsible for terrain clearance?
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I ought to have worded my reply to ATCO Two a bit different.
You stated:
"Hold at any intermediate clearance limit for 3 minutes and then proceed as per the notified routeing"
What is classed as an intermediate clearance?
Steve
You stated:
"Hold at any intermediate clearance limit for 3 minutes and then proceed as per the notified routeing"
What is classed as an intermediate clearance?
Steve
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Whipping Boy. Glad to hear you've been doing the job a coupla years - you'll be out of short trousers soon! My view is that ALL airspace should be Class A... but then I'm only speaking with 31+ years experience at Heathrow!!
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Steve,
If you have received a clearance to fly the requested route through the LCZ and you then go RTF fail, you may continue to conduct the flight in accordance with the clearance. If you are given a specific clearance limit such as Gutteridge, London Bridge, Isle of Dogs, or you have only received a clearance for part of your requested route, then you must hold at the last cleared reporting point for 3 minutes and then continue in accordance with your requested route at the standard operating altitudes.
If you have received a clearance to fly the requested route through the LCZ and you then go RTF fail, you may continue to conduct the flight in accordance with the clearance. If you are given a specific clearance limit such as Gutteridge, London Bridge, Isle of Dogs, or you have only received a clearance for part of your requested route, then you must hold at the last cleared reporting point for 3 minutes and then continue in accordance with your requested route at the standard operating altitudes.
