Oxford to get Radar?
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Oxford to get Radar?
Heard that talks are under way again. I heard that Serco civil ATCOs will be based at Brize, if it takes place. Anyone have any info?
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niknak
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I think that the talks will end once the estimated costs involved are presented to Oxford.
I don't know how many, if any of the existing Oxford atc staff are radar rated, but even if radar was only provided from 0900 -1700, you would need at least two radar atco's per day.
SERCO would charge Oxford for the provision this service, and to ensure continuity at least 75% of the atco staff would have to be radar rated.
Brize would obviously charge for the use of the console, this cost is a little difficult to quantify, but you can almost guarantee their estimate would include provision of the equipment and engineering, (not forgetting provision of a chair and a pen
).
Given the way things are run at Oxford, the intensity of the traffic (which is almost all training), and the complexity of the airspace in the vicinity, the provision of radar wouldnt actually make any significant difference or improvement to traffic flows, nor does the airport have sufficiant commercial traffic or economic justification to warrant the cost.
Sorry guys, I think that this ones a no hoper from day one.
I don't know how many, if any of the existing Oxford atc staff are radar rated, but even if radar was only provided from 0900 -1700, you would need at least two radar atco's per day.
SERCO would charge Oxford for the provision this service, and to ensure continuity at least 75% of the atco staff would have to be radar rated.
Brize would obviously charge for the use of the console, this cost is a little difficult to quantify, but you can almost guarantee their estimate would include provision of the equipment and engineering, (not forgetting provision of a chair and a pen
).Given the way things are run at Oxford, the intensity of the traffic (which is almost all training), and the complexity of the airspace in the vicinity, the provision of radar wouldnt actually make any significant difference or improvement to traffic flows, nor does the airport have sufficiant commercial traffic or economic justification to warrant the cost.
Sorry guys, I think that this ones a no hoper from day one.
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Cranfield used to be in a similar situation and radar worked very well when they borrowed a console at Bedford. CSE guys from Oxford were there all the time because of it.
I'm sure it will improve the training environment if they get it, and the business/corporate traffic will benefit too.
Sure, they are going to need the people to man it, but they'll start appearing out of the woodwork if it happens.
I'm sure it will improve the training environment if they get it, and the business/corporate traffic will benefit too.
Sure, they are going to need the people to man it, but they'll start appearing out of the woodwork if it happens.
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Red Dragon, sorry I didn't make myself totally clear. Brize has been providing a dedicated service to Oxford for a number of years now. Admittedly, this is not a true 'Radar Approach' service (more of an enhanced LARS) but they ofen help in deconflicting "IFR" arrivals and departures.
niknak
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WBS I wasn't suggesting that Brize should provide an atco free of charge for Oxford, and if, as you suggest, Brize are providing some form of dedicated radar service for Oxford for nothing, keep it between us and all the other ppruners .
If the RAF bean counters were to discover this their abacus's would be burnt out calculating the bill for this service
.
As for costs of provision, salary of radar atco = £42K, SERCO will charge Oxford approx' £75K per radar atco per annum, multiply this by the number of radar atco's required (I would suggest at least 10 to cover a 0800 - 2000 radar operation), plus the cost of retaining redeploying the established non radar atco's, charges by the RAF and other ancillary costs = a totally uneconomic equation.
Perhaps SERCO should be pushing for the type of arrangement which exists at Norwich, whereby the RAF pay Norwich circa £50K per year for Norwich atco's to man (and woman) a console at Coltishall from 0830 to 1800 Monday to Friday.
Unfortunately Oxford depends on the established commercial training for it's income, without it, and considering it's limited runway infrastructure and aviation development potential, the airfield is worth far more as another housing development.
If that wasn't enough, have a look at the 'Private Flying' forum under 'Jobs go at OATS', to see what is really happening at Oxford.
.If the RAF bean counters were to discover this their abacus's would be burnt out calculating the bill for this service
.As for costs of provision, salary of radar atco = £42K, SERCO will charge Oxford approx' £75K per radar atco per annum, multiply this by the number of radar atco's required (I would suggest at least 10 to cover a 0800 - 2000 radar operation), plus the cost of retaining redeploying the established non radar atco's, charges by the RAF and other ancillary costs = a totally uneconomic equation.
Perhaps SERCO should be pushing for the type of arrangement which exists at Norwich, whereby the RAF pay Norwich circa £50K per year for Norwich atco's to man (and woman) a console at Coltishall from 0830 to 1800 Monday to Friday.
Unfortunately Oxford depends on the established commercial training for it's income, without it, and considering it's limited runway infrastructure and aviation development potential, the airfield is worth far more as another housing development.
If that wasn't enough, have a look at the 'Private Flying' forum under 'Jobs go at OATS', to see what is really happening at Oxford.
Last edited by niknak; 2nd Apr 2002 at 21:50.
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[Niknak you've hit the nail on the head.
This all fell through last time because of the costs involved to OAT, and with all the cost cutting going on there right now, this idea is dead in the water.]
This all fell through last time because of the costs involved to OAT, and with all the cost cutting going on there right now, this idea is dead in the water.]
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Niknak, not a bad idea getting the military to pay for Oxford's inadequacies. However, a couple of minor points:
Coltishall need to 'control' Norwich as their arrival and departure profiles conflict rather nicely. Brize don't have such a problem; its their CTR so 'poke off' Oxford. Brize certainly don't need to speak to a PA34 on a WCO, WOB, DTY navex.
Secondly, I would be more than willing, as a taxpayer, to pay even more than 24 billion a year (defence budget) just so the military can employ SERCO to do OATS' job for them.
Coltishall need to 'control' Norwich as their arrival and departure profiles conflict rather nicely. Brize don't have such a problem; its their CTR so 'poke off' Oxford. Brize certainly don't need to speak to a PA34 on a WCO, WOB, DTY navex.
Secondly, I would be more than willing, as a taxpayer, to pay even more than 24 billion a year (defence budget) just so the military can employ SERCO to do OATS' job for them.
Last edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO; 4th Apr 2002 at 18:13.
