TOWER without radar.
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Procedural Control - instead of using radar; using radials, DME, sectors of departure direction, timing between aircraft, etc etc etc...
Should be covered on the www somewhere... - or refer to Air Law (ATPL theory)...
Should be covered on the www somewhere... - or refer to Air Law (ATPL theory)...
Last edited by seilfly; 13th May 2012 at 13:53.
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ADV
Are Redhill ADV?
And whilst I've got a internet connection which is allowing me to post (and sorry for the major thread hijack but I'll probably be back to read only as soon as I hit 'submit' until BT get their act together) anyone know what is happening at Dunsfold in terms of the ATC setup?
And whilst I've got a internet connection which is allowing me to post (and sorry for the major thread hijack but I'll probably be back to read only as soon as I hit 'submit' until BT get their act together) anyone know what is happening at Dunsfold in terms of the ATC setup?
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Off the top of my head.
Most of the HIAL airports are procedural approach if not all the time, some of the day.
Cambridge is procedural again at certain times of the day.
Scilly Isles.
Dundee.
Oxford I presume some of the time now they have radar.
Most of the HIAL airports are procedural approach if not all the time, some of the day.
Cambridge is procedural again at certain times of the day.
Scilly Isles.
Dundee.
Oxford I presume some of the time now they have radar.
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th May 2012 at 17:06.
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Originally Posted by mad_jock
Most of the HIAL airports are procedural approach
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Barra is a FISO all the time I think still and has instrument procedures.
You ocassionally used to get a FISO in SUM but ABZ did the approach control.
There are quite a few none published operator instrument procedures up North. Its not an issue though, when they need to be used nobody else is daft enough to be in the air.
I haven't a clue what they have these days though.
You ocassionally used to get a FISO in SUM but ABZ did the approach control.
There are quite a few none published operator instrument procedures up North. Its not an issue though, when they need to be used nobody else is daft enough to be in the air.
I haven't a clue what they have these days though.
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Originally Posted by mad_jock
There are quite a few none published operator instrument procedures up North. Its not an issue though, when they need to be used nobody else is daft enough to be in the air
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I worked for 12 years in 2 non-radar Towers, both had DF equipment.
Basically, you look out the window when you can and it is very little traffic when IFR.
The enroute sector clears one aircraft at a time on IFR approaches, the others either cancel below 12500 or hold.
Basically, you look out the window when you can and it is very little traffic when IFR.
The enroute sector clears one aircraft at a time on IFR approaches, the others either cancel below 12500 or hold.
Milan N: working in a VFR environment at an aircraft rally, I've had 14 on final and 7 rolling out on the runway, but this is exceptional.
Andy Mayes: The owners of Dunsfold have decided that ATC is too expensive for their operating environment, so the potential ATC unit was withdrawn wef 4 May. Dunsfold will remain A/G on 119.1 for the foreseeable future.
Andy Mayes: The owners of Dunsfold have decided that ATC is too expensive for their operating environment, so the potential ATC unit was withdrawn wef 4 May. Dunsfold will remain A/G on 119.1 for the foreseeable future.
On that occasion, the airport (Cranfield) was designated VFR only. There were parallel hard and grass runways in use, and a lot of traffic was using the grass runway, but I wasn't counting them as I was just responsible for the hard runway.
Last edited by chevvron; 14th May 2012 at 09:32.
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Millian some of the Scottish airports can have 4-5 IFR's inbound wx blowing a gale and the cloud on the deck.
The area guys setup a sequence with the tower and seperate you vertically. Then you get transfered over to tower/app who will step you down and then clear you for the procedure when safe.
It all sounds very suspect but actually works very well when the crews know the rules and you have an experenced good procedural controller on the mike (as most of them are up North). There are various things the crew can do to help the controller out.
You can also do things which which would never be allowed in a radar enviroment like visual climb/decents againsts. Tatical rule changes while VMC on top or VFR departure followed by IFR climb once your past the inbound. And always the joker if wx permits "cancel IFR" at which point the controller can launch his 3 IFR's at the hold with unrestricted climbs without getting you on the procedure or visual.
I don't know really how it works these days under ATSOSCA
The area guys setup a sequence with the tower and seperate you vertically. Then you get transfered over to tower/app who will step you down and then clear you for the procedure when safe.
It all sounds very suspect but actually works very well when the crews know the rules and you have an experenced good procedural controller on the mike (as most of them are up North). There are various things the crew can do to help the controller out.
You can also do things which which would never be allowed in a radar enviroment like visual climb/decents againsts. Tatical rule changes while VMC on top or VFR departure followed by IFR climb once your past the inbound. And always the joker if wx permits "cancel IFR" at which point the controller can launch his 3 IFR's at the hold with unrestricted climbs without getting you on the procedure or visual.
I don't know really how it works these days under ATSOSCA
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We seem to be blurring a whole bunch of things here. First off, whilst ICAO is a little vague about the relationship between aerodrome and approach control services, if we look at PANS-ATM para 7.1.1.2 tells us that aerodrome controllers shall maintain a continuous watch on all flight operations on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome as well as vehicles and personnel on the manoeuvring area. Watch shall be maintained by visual observation, augmented in low visibility conditions by radar when available.
If you look at some of the other provision in the document we find that ADC is, fundamentally, a service orientated around VMC operations with radar providing additional information if one has the luxury of having it. Management of traffic operating in IMC - and therefore by definition being separated - is an approach control function. The document makes provision for variations to the basic 'rules' by requiring the detail to be 'as specified in letters of agreement or ATS unit instructions' (presumably on the assumption that these will ensure that the aircraft will be kept an appropriate distance apart if they are not operating by visual reference).
Technically, all of the IFR separations required will be provided by the approach controller or through delegation to the aerodrome controller in accordance with local procedures.
Unless you have a particular interest in UK procedures, don't get confused by some of the comments in this thread relating to ATSOCAS and the very unusual UK system which effectively means that aircraft get a control service when they are outside controlled airspace in some situations.
In practise, an aerodrome controller will manage that 'safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome' by watching where the aircraft are and being happy that they will not collide or by placing the obligation on pilots to ensure that aircraft do not collide by, for example, telling one pilot to follow another aircraft. Of course, passing suitable flight and traffic information makes all of this a lot easier.
If you look at some of the other provision in the document we find that ADC is, fundamentally, a service orientated around VMC operations with radar providing additional information if one has the luxury of having it. Management of traffic operating in IMC - and therefore by definition being separated - is an approach control function. The document makes provision for variations to the basic 'rules' by requiring the detail to be 'as specified in letters of agreement or ATS unit instructions' (presumably on the assumption that these will ensure that the aircraft will be kept an appropriate distance apart if they are not operating by visual reference).
Technically, all of the IFR separations required will be provided by the approach controller or through delegation to the aerodrome controller in accordance with local procedures.
Unless you have a particular interest in UK procedures, don't get confused by some of the comments in this thread relating to ATSOCAS and the very unusual UK system which effectively means that aircraft get a control service when they are outside controlled airspace in some situations.
In practise, an aerodrome controller will manage that 'safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome' by watching where the aircraft are and being happy that they will not collide or by placing the obligation on pilots to ensure that aircraft do not collide by, for example, telling one pilot to follow another aircraft. Of course, passing suitable flight and traffic information makes all of this a lot easier.
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I know that down here in little ol' New Zealand, we have a couple of controlled aerodromes without radar services. As far as I'm aware it just means that position reporting becomes more crucial.
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I think there's some confusion here:
1. ADV and ADI has nothing to do with having a radar or not. ADI means you can work as aerodrome controller at an airport served with instrument approahes.
2. Having no radar on TWR doesn't always equal to procedural approach services, you need APP rating for that. It's perfectly possible to work ADI on TWR without radar, with a separate approach unit.
1. ADV and ADI has nothing to do with having a radar or not. ADI means you can work as aerodrome controller at an airport served with instrument approahes.
2. Having no radar on TWR doesn't always equal to procedural approach services, you need APP rating for that. It's perfectly possible to work ADI on TWR without radar, with a separate approach unit.
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If Milan's stated location is correct, the licence ratings may well be those in ICAO Annex 1. It is possible that Ukraine has not implemented EUROCONTROL ESARR 5 and has not transposed the relevant EU directive/regulation. If this is the case the choice of ratings would be limited to aerodrome control, approach control or approach radar control.
Whatever the licensing arrangements, nothing changes the basic principle that controlling aerodrome traffic is primarily done by looking out of the window.
Whatever the licensing arrangements, nothing changes the basic principle that controlling aerodrome traffic is primarily done by looking out of the window.
If you're asking how many aircraft can be on final in a procedural approach environment it's limited by the weather conditions. As a TWR and APP controller you can't clear a second aircraft for the approach until you can see the first, and there is reasonable assurance that a normal landing can be made. So usually you need 3 or 4 minutes between arrivals in most conditions. If you have to protect the missed approach (below circling) then you need more like six minutes as you need to wait until the first aircraft is on the ground before the second can be cleared for the approach. Aircraft can be instructed to join the initial approach and maintain a level above preceding traffic provided there is enough spacing between them to issue an approach clearance in time to allow the aircraft to descend on a normal profile and that an approach clearance is issued prior to being established inbound