controllers in the cockpit

[l39]

Dear All,
I am curious how many of you have a program or smth.. for controllers to fly in the cockpit "jump seat" and if you have such program, do you find it useful?
I am working in eastern Europe as an enroute , and we had such practice about 10 years ago, but it never reached program`s goal.
Now I think it`s time we did it again on a different basis.
L 39

[Dream Land]

Controllers are only as good as the training they receive, but in my opinion, flight deck observations don't accomplish a lot, I think it's much more beneficial for pilots to visit ATC facilities.

[l39]

In fact, both pilots and controllers get to see how the other half works.. I think it would be beneficial. There's some ability for both sides to learn from the other. For us : the operations of the aircraft, the procedures, watching what they do, how equipment works, how the air traffic control system works..and, as for them..a lot !

[ZOOKER]

I always found familiarisation flights very beneficial and was always made very welcome on all the flight-decks I had the pleasure to travel on. - Especially the 2 gentleman who thought I was a CAA Flight-OPS inspector and were visibly relieved when I said I was ATCO. These trips were also counted as 'duty time' when I first joined ATC.
It was always a pleasure, and very informative, to have pilots 'plugged in' with us on various ATC positions. Always great to welcome people in 'big hats' into the ops-room. Sadly, distraction policy often forbids this today.
We also had many 'pilot-controller forums'. Informal get-togethers at a pub near the airport where new and existing procedures could be discussed and faces put to voices, over a curry or hot-pot supper. This is difficult today as most of the U.K's area and approach-radar controllers now work in locations far-away from where most pilots (commercial or private), are based.
Fortunately where I worked, we also had a hill-walking group which involved both ATCOs, ATSAs and aircrew. Many issues were discussed on the fells of northern England, and the results of these discussions cascaded down, (oops, sorry, management-speak), to other staff.
Sadly, today, accountants, (and others who administer, but are no longer, or, even worse, never have been, at 'the sharp end'), have forgotten, or do not understand the benefits of 'Famil'.
A shame.

[atc_chopper]

I did about 38 "fam" flights before they were banned after 09/11. Truly some of the best training ever completed. Several times encountered thunderstorms and got to see first hand what the pilots were looking at before they requested deviations. Fully learned to understand the difference between "light chop" and moderate turbulence. Saw St Elmo's fire come thru the wind screen, and encountered a lightning strick on a flight out of Phoenix. Was in the cockpit when we had a medical emergency with a passenger in the back, and was utilized by the crew to read the charts and procedures for the nearest airport we had to land at for assistance. It truly gave me an appreciation of what the pilots go through on their end and develop a a kinship with those "voices" in the headset. ATC and pilots are both in the business of safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic, and I always felt that those who never got to experience this privelege never would truly understand the close relationship between controllers and pilots, and also how fragile that relationship can truly be.

[TC_Ukraine]

In Ukraine we have such flights in cockpit almost every year with domestic airlines (but it's not obligatory). Good thing to understand crew's workload during each phase of flight. And to explain why we sometimes have to do things, pilots don't like.

[Denti]

Working in a german airline we are allowed to let any german ATCO travel up front, however it happens only very very rarely that one asks. They don't seem to travel all that often

[jackieofalltrades]

I've done several fam flights in the cockpit, and have always found them to be highly useful and a valuable learning experience, especially when I was training.

I learnt a lot about what the pilots do, and, importantly, what the aircraft can and cannot do. There's no point me giving the aircraft an instruction if it's not capable of doing it.

I also agree that it's a good idea for pilots to come into the control centre to see what we do. Visiting the 'other side' of the microphone gives much better understanding of the other's role.

[kontrolor]

we practice this quite a lot. and offer pilots sim rides on our simulators too

[jacquesbernis]

Of course they are beneficial, if they sit in the cockpit as oppose to Seat 1A like the ORD controllers must have. Those guys have no appreciation of what a late change of runway/approach involves in a modern jet, assuming one was to follow his/her airline's robust SOPs.

[The Many Tentacles]

Having done a couple of fam flights on the jumpseat I agree that they're certainly beneficial. It allows us controllers to see what goes on at certain points of the flight, the workloads that the pilots have and so on.

On the flip side, it's equally useful for pilots to visit ATC, preferably as many phases of the operation as possible. It would allow us to explain why things happen the way they do, why you end up on a heading when you can see nothing on TCAS (I'm looking at you, KLM pilots into Cardiff and Bristol ), why you might get step climbs etc and just generally increases the understanding.

NATS has finally started pushing fam flights a bit more, they've always been available, but for some reason they've been promoting them a bit more as part of our annual TRUCE training

[mebur_verce]

Been jump-seating a few times lately, and I found every second of those flights useful for my job. It really helps you provide a better service.

I wish we had more pilots visiting ATC units as well, that would really make the difference.

[Jester Wester]

I totally agree that Fam Flights for Controllers and Liason visits for Pilots are essential to enable both parties to fully understand the probems that we face. Post 9/11 it became practically impossible to arrange fam flights and because many ATC Towers are now located airside it is often difficult for pilots to visit ATC.
I personally think that these liason arrangements should take place in duty time. I have never felt that either a fam flight or liason visit has been a waste time; there has always been a sharing of knowledge and undertsanding that can only benefit the industry as a whole.

[HPbleed]

I did about 38 "fam" flights before they were banned after 09/11. Truly some of the best training ever completed. Several times encountered thunderstorms and got to see first hand what the pilots were looking at before they requested deviations. Fully learned to understand the difference between "light chop" and moderate turbulence. Saw St Elmo's fire come thru the wind screen, and encountered a lightning strick on a flight out of Phoenix. Was in the cockpit when we had a medical emergency with a passenger in the back, and was utilized by the crew to read the charts and procedures for the nearest airport we had to land at for assistance

You got several thunderstorms recquiring deviation, moderate turbulence, St Elmos fire, a lightning strike AND a medical emergency in 38 sectors? Were the pilots looking for trouble? It's rare I get ONE of those events a month.

[atc_chopper]

Not 38 sectors but over 38 flights when I was in the jumpseat. And yes, I thought I was rather fortunate to see all that

[Radar Contact Lost]

You certainly made him wait for an answer.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

In my times it wasn't official,but it was allowed tom enter cockpit and many people did it.
Personally, i entered ATC door via pilot door so I had idea what is going on in cockpit .
But one day Falcon 50 (YU BNA ) arrived at my airfield. don't miss it !

I tried at least 40 types of a/c ( both as PIC and SLF ) . But nothing compares with Falcon.
Outside Temperature over 40, 11 person on board and 4500 ft/min initial climb with 96 % of power.

apart from unique flying experience I have an opportunity to see how well trained and highest possible SOP works . N.b. YU BNA is state a/c for highest level of officials ( that particular day on board were lower level delegation-that explains my entrance )
forever in my mind.

[chevvron]

I had some great fam flights before 9/11 spoiled it for us. If you booked with someone like Britannia (aka Thomsonfly) you were guaranteed the jump seat so they could still sell the seat in the cabin which you would otherwise occupy.
One flight, Gatwick - Malaga with BA, we were just starting descent into Malaga; I was positive I heard ATC clear us to descend to FL110, captain was on the cabin PA and I heard F/O readback FL100. I thought I'd better mention this so F/O asked the captain (who'd been pre-occupied); he asked ATC who said 'FL160' in a rather terse tone of voice!(ie emphasising the '6')
Captain remarked 'that sort of thing often happens around here'.

[Una Due Tfc]

I've done a few, very beneficial. I'm ACS though, I think APS and TWR, especially ground movements, would benefit more. Ryanair have been offering us fam flights alot lately. Given their lack of ACARS etc, I'd be very interested to see their workload, combined with the higher workloads involved just by flying to some of their destinations; class G, non precision procedural approaches, like going back in time 40 years

[babotika]

I know it's an old thread but it's still worth something... I very very firmly believe it should be mandatory for all pilots and controllers to spend 1 day a year observing each others "offices"

I am regularly horrified at the way pilot colleagues whinge and moan about controllers without having the first idea about how the airspace works and what pressures said controllers have. That said I still sigh when told to slow down and go down ... both should really know better.

In today's modern crowded airspace we really are one team. It is imperative that both sides have a decent understanding of each others jobs. I would happily take controllers flying but the nation in which my aircraft are registered has decided flight decks should be impossible to get into without 12 miles of red tape.