VFR Flight Plan
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VFR Flight Plan
Hello ATCs,
I planning a solo x-country flight at night from liverpool to cardiff and back (land away). It will be vfr flight with some radio aids. I would like to know whether a flight plan is needed? If needed, is there a additional cost to it?
Thank you
I planning a solo x-country flight at night from liverpool to cardiff and back (land away). It will be vfr flight with some radio aids. I would like to know whether a flight plan is needed? If needed, is there a additional cost to it?
Thank you
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n.dave.
It does no harm to file a flight plan for any flight and it is free.
If you are flying from Liverpool to Cardiff and back again you are flying over quite inhospitable country and with the exception of London Information there is no other ATC service available in that part of the world who can watch over your whole route.
In my opinion and if it were me I would file a flight plan.
It does no harm to file a flight plan for any flight and it is free.
If you are flying from Liverpool to Cardiff and back again you are flying over quite inhospitable country and with the exception of London Information there is no other ATC service available in that part of the world who can watch over your whole route.
In my opinion and if it were me I would file a flight plan.
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Originally Posted by n.dave
At night time there is no vfr. Within controlled airspace it is svfr and outside it is ifr
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Incredible. Here we have a PPL(?) who doesn't know basic Rules of the Air.
n.dave... Before you go near an aeroplane please mug up on the relevant regs. You can find them on-line.
n.dave... Before you go near an aeroplane please mug up on the relevant regs. You can find them on-line.
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DC10RealMan and Occams Razor thanks for the information.
Heathrow Director, I don't have much experience on night flights here in the the uk. Most of my training was done in USA. I will take your advise, thanks.
Heathrow Director, I don't have much experience on night flights here in the the uk. Most of my training was done in USA. I will take your advise, thanks.
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Chill out a bit, HD! When I learned to fly the rules were thoroughly confusing - and there weren't nearly so many in those days.
n.dave, as you've already learned, we don't do VFR at night in the UK (although that may change shortly as we get common rules across Europe). But here's a quick summary of the rules today as I recall them - if you fly outside controlled airspace below 3000ft amsl, remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface you are complying with the IFR...whilst flying around just as you would in daylight. Go above 3000ft and you have to fly at quadrantal levels but I think that's the only extra rule).
In theory, SVFR is intended to enable aircraft to take off and land in a CTZ without having to comply with IFR and you shouldn't get a SVFR transit clearance - so it would probably be best to plan your route to stay outside CAS.
A flight plan for the flight should be straightforward - you'll file a cruising level and your route will be DCT (direct) or via any navaids or positions that you choose to use. I've no idea how flight plans get filed in practice these days - it's all changed since I had anything to do with such things! You would probably do well to find a friendly instructor to take you through completing the plan and filing it - or, if there's anyone in the Briefing Room or whatever at Liverpool, speak to them about the process. Pick your time well and be honest about your level of knowledge - with a bit of luck they'll be happy to talk you through it and answer your questions. None of it is rocket science but it's all a bit daunting at first.
The above is all done from memory so I apologise now if any details are wrong but I think it broadly sums up most GA night flying in the UK.
n.dave, as you've already learned, we don't do VFR at night in the UK (although that may change shortly as we get common rules across Europe). But here's a quick summary of the rules today as I recall them - if you fly outside controlled airspace below 3000ft amsl, remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface you are complying with the IFR...whilst flying around just as you would in daylight. Go above 3000ft and you have to fly at quadrantal levels but I think that's the only extra rule).
In theory, SVFR is intended to enable aircraft to take off and land in a CTZ without having to comply with IFR and you shouldn't get a SVFR transit clearance - so it would probably be best to plan your route to stay outside CAS.
A flight plan for the flight should be straightforward - you'll file a cruising level and your route will be DCT (direct) or via any navaids or positions that you choose to use. I've no idea how flight plans get filed in practice these days - it's all changed since I had anything to do with such things! You would probably do well to find a friendly instructor to take you through completing the plan and filing it - or, if there's anyone in the Briefing Room or whatever at Liverpool, speak to them about the process. Pick your time well and be honest about your level of knowledge - with a bit of luck they'll be happy to talk you through it and answer your questions. None of it is rocket science but it's all a bit daunting at first.
The above is all done from memory so I apologise now if any details are wrong but I think it broadly sums up most GA night flying in the UK.
Avoid imitations
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I fly night OCAS much of the time, increasingly so now the days are rapidly shortening as winter draws in.
In reality, despite what the books say, a paper flight plan isn't worth much for a flight like this, mainly in Class G airspace. If you are concerned about SAR in case of a problem (and you should be, especially on your proposed route) in practice it's far better to ensure you remain in contact with an ATC unit at all times. If there is no-one else more suitable then just use London Information, who are forever helpful, God Bless 'Em. Also, let a responsible person know your route and timings and check in with them after landing. Agree that they will take overdue action if you don't check in. If you operate from a flying club, it goes without saying that this should be done.
In reality, despite what the books say, a paper flight plan isn't worth much for a flight like this, mainly in Class G airspace. If you are concerned about SAR in case of a problem (and you should be, especially on your proposed route) in practice it's far better to ensure you remain in contact with an ATC unit at all times. If there is no-one else more suitable then just use London Information, who are forever helpful, God Bless 'Em. Also, let a responsible person know your route and timings and check in with them after landing. Agree that they will take overdue action if you don't check in. If you operate from a flying club, it goes without saying that this should be done.
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flight plans can be filed for free at https://ts2.flightplanningonline.co.uk/
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I don't know what level you are flying at but Western Radar are very helpful and pleasant. Due to the the time of day they may keep a watchful eye on your travels even thought strictly speaking it might not be in there remit.
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Incredible. Here we have a PPL(?) who doesn't know basic Rules of the Air.
n.dave... Before you go near an aeroplane please mug up on the relevant regs. You can find them on-line.
n.dave... Before you go near an aeroplane please mug up on the relevant regs. You can find them on-line.
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HD is OK.
Unfortunately he does have a point with the general level of knowledge in the UK about the regs and airlaw.
This unfortunately stems from the top down in the PPL world where the majority of CPL/FI's themselves are pretty clueless. In the UK we don't have the same GA scene that the US does and the old and knowledgeable are few and far apart. We just have a majority of 200-1000 hour FI's teaching PPL's who then go on to become the next 200 instructors.
Then we have the integrated trained pilots who can't get a airline job becoming instructors who have pretty much been rammed through the system with the object of flying a 737 at the end of it. All the single engine training has been done outside the UK under different rules and regs. And even in there initial training they have been taught from the world go to fly airline style.
Its only going to get worse I suspect.
Unfortunately he does have a point with the general level of knowledge in the UK about the regs and airlaw.
This unfortunately stems from the top down in the PPL world where the majority of CPL/FI's themselves are pretty clueless. In the UK we don't have the same GA scene that the US does and the old and knowledgeable are few and far apart. We just have a majority of 200-1000 hour FI's teaching PPL's who then go on to become the next 200 instructors.
Then we have the integrated trained pilots who can't get a airline job becoming instructors who have pretty much been rammed through the system with the object of flying a 737 at the end of it. All the single engine training has been done outside the UK under different rules and regs. And even in there initial training they have been taught from the world go to fly airline style.
Its only going to get worse I suspect.
HD makes a very valid point and his frustration is understandable. In my experience of reading his many posts he frequently offers sound advice. Perhaps, being retired, he is wise not to offer advice on this particular fairly complex topic although he has probably forgotten more than many FIs ever knew!
HD
Soaringhigh650,Howtocommunicate and Spitoon. I suggest you all reread HD's post carefully! You will see he has said to n.dave PLEASE get acquainted with the regs before you next fly. Perfectly politely.
HD is a top man and one of the most caring guys you will ever meet.
He, like me, will have lost count of the number of times when acting as Tower/Approach Supervisor at Heathrow we have had to stop the 'Big Jets' because of zone infringements by inadequately briefed and prepared PPL pilots. Back in the day we would get them to phone-in, have a quiet chat and determine their level of experience and advise them about the various agencies out there that they could call for help ie D&D, London Info, Thames etc. Unless the pilot was particularly 'difficult', no further action would be taken.
In my latter days at work this option was removed, as the CAA insisted on full reports being submitted with a view to possible legal action!
ndave please enjoy your flying but always remember,if not fully prepared it has a nasty habit of catching you out.
Take care, Brian
HD is a top man and one of the most caring guys you will ever meet.
He, like me, will have lost count of the number of times when acting as Tower/Approach Supervisor at Heathrow we have had to stop the 'Big Jets' because of zone infringements by inadequately briefed and prepared PPL pilots. Back in the day we would get them to phone-in, have a quiet chat and determine their level of experience and advise them about the various agencies out there that they could call for help ie D&D, London Info, Thames etc. Unless the pilot was particularly 'difficult', no further action would be taken.
In my latter days at work this option was removed, as the CAA insisted on full reports being submitted with a view to possible legal action!
ndave please enjoy your flying but always remember,if not fully prepared it has a nasty habit of catching you out.
Take care, Brian
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I am not for one moment trying to suggest that aviating is not a serious business or that the consequences of screwing it up cannot be very severe but bear in mind....
n.dave is not a professional. Like it or not, different standards apply to non-professional flying - and that is why there are portions of airspace that are available only to professionally qualified pilots.
And we all had to learn sometime. For HD to have reached the level of knowledge that is expected of professional controllers I feel sure that there were a whole bunch of kindly and wiser folk who took the trouble to explain things to him regardless of how incredible the lack of knowledge may have seemed. I know I have benefited (and continue to do so) from such people.
I fully respect HD's credentials, and maybe it was just a bad day, but just reading the rulebook doesn't always explain how to do things - particularly if we're talking about the Rules of the Air!
n.dave is not a professional. Like it or not, different standards apply to non-professional flying - and that is why there are portions of airspace that are available only to professionally qualified pilots.
And we all had to learn sometime. For HD to have reached the level of knowledge that is expected of professional controllers I feel sure that there were a whole bunch of kindly and wiser folk who took the trouble to explain things to him regardless of how incredible the lack of knowledge may have seemed. I know I have benefited (and continue to do so) from such people.
I fully respect HD's credentials, and maybe it was just a bad day, but just reading the rulebook doesn't always explain how to do things - particularly if we're talking about the Rules of the Air!
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So much grieves on this thread that I have created. After reading much about Air Law, flight plan is required to flight operations within controlled airspace. Rules 29, 31(flight plan and atc clearance) and 32. Outside controlled airspace are rules 29 and 30.
I know I don't have enough experience and knowledge about the requirements. I'm writing on this lion's den (ATC) hoping to get solutions from professionals and to compare what I read/research at home is correct. I have to be thick skin using this pprune again. I will continue to use this website if I have any questions that I cannot answer by myself. It's better to be right than wrong. I focus on what is right rather than who is right.
Peace, seniors. No more arguing.
I know I don't have enough experience and knowledge about the requirements. I'm writing on this lion's den (ATC) hoping to get solutions from professionals and to compare what I read/research at home is correct. I have to be thick skin using this pprune again. I will continue to use this website if I have any questions that I cannot answer by myself. It's better to be right than wrong. I focus on what is right rather than who is right.
Peace, seniors. No more arguing.
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There is a divide about what none pilot ATC think we should do and the actual reality of what happens.
Once you get up into big things IFR everything actually becomes easier.
In the UK you don't have to have a flight plan to operate inside controlled airspace for under 5700kg (over that you always need a flight plan be it VFR or IFR) you can just free call but you run the risk of getting refused access even if you have a plan it doesn't confirm any access. But you do need one to use the airways which you wouldn't have access to because its class A and you need an IR plus a machine that is suitably equiped for it.
To be honest in the private flying forum there are guys that do this sort of thing weekly and they know the full ins and outs of taking a light aircraft from the UK down to south of spain VFR. Which I would struggle to do as a commercial pilot ( I would manage eventually it wouldn't be pretty though), everything is always taken care of by an ops department. We just rock up look at some wx and notams, stick some fuel on as we kick the tyres, light the fires and away we go. Everyone knows who we are were we are going.
For your trip there would be no requirement for a flight plan, but you would be advised to have a good think about "what if"
Go on the private flying forum and see if there is a more experienced pilot willing to come with you or for that matter there may be someone willing to go halves so you can do it twice or head north next time to PIK.
BTW good on you for trying to do something a bit more adventurous than going for a bimble or to the same old places for a burger.
Once you get up into big things IFR everything actually becomes easier.
In the UK you don't have to have a flight plan to operate inside controlled airspace for under 5700kg (over that you always need a flight plan be it VFR or IFR) you can just free call but you run the risk of getting refused access even if you have a plan it doesn't confirm any access. But you do need one to use the airways which you wouldn't have access to because its class A and you need an IR plus a machine that is suitably equiped for it.
To be honest in the private flying forum there are guys that do this sort of thing weekly and they know the full ins and outs of taking a light aircraft from the UK down to south of spain VFR. Which I would struggle to do as a commercial pilot ( I would manage eventually it wouldn't be pretty though), everything is always taken care of by an ops department. We just rock up look at some wx and notams, stick some fuel on as we kick the tyres, light the fires and away we go. Everyone knows who we are were we are going.
For your trip there would be no requirement for a flight plan, but you would be advised to have a good think about "what if"
Go on the private flying forum and see if there is a more experienced pilot willing to come with you or for that matter there may be someone willing to go halves so you can do it twice or head north next time to PIK.
BTW good on you for trying to do something a bit more adventurous than going for a bimble or to the same old places for a burger.
Last edited by mad_jock; 14th Oct 2011 at 23:02.
At the risk of being unpopular, Heathrow Director should probably think about maybe keeping his 'expert' opinion to himself on certain matters considering his now lengthening time away from the industry. His astounding ignorance especially with respect to new technologies is testament to this.
Just my opinon
Just my opinon