Clutter & Wind Turbines?
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Clutter & Wind Turbines?
Hi Folks,
I'm the area manager for the South of England & Wales for a 'Small' Wind turbine manufacturer (Evance Wind - Small Wind Turbines). Part of our considerations when sitting our turbines is clutter/dopplar issues, primarily from the MoD but obviously CAA is a major consideration too.
Our turbines are typically sited on masts that are 10, 12, 15 & 18m high and have a rotor diameter of 5.5m (composite).
I would be very interested in hearing from any Radar techs or anyone else with experience in this area as to any ways that we can help avoid clutter etc?
all the best
Alex
Area Manager (Southern England & Wales)
Evance Wind Turbines Ltd
I'm the area manager for the South of England & Wales for a 'Small' Wind turbine manufacturer (Evance Wind - Small Wind Turbines). Part of our considerations when sitting our turbines is clutter/dopplar issues, primarily from the MoD but obviously CAA is a major consideration too.
Our turbines are typically sited on masts that are 10, 12, 15 & 18m high and have a rotor diameter of 5.5m (composite).
I would be very interested in hearing from any Radar techs or anyone else with experience in this area as to any ways that we can help avoid clutter etc?
all the best
Alex
Area Manager (Southern England & Wales)
Evance Wind Turbines Ltd
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Why wouldn't you love a windfarm.....
Previously worked on looking at the effects of windfarms on ATC operations in the UK for several years (but by no means an expert ).
At this present moment in time the only mitagation "proven" to work is infill radars with terrain shielding however the loss of low level coverage can be a major concern to operators especially in areas of low flying mil jests etc.
There are a couple of current sensor manufactuers who believe that they have deveoped/ improved their current radar technologies enough to differentiate between moving targets and turbine blades with good results(and have currently installed this at at least three locations, (i can think of off hand).
There are also some new companies who are developing new infill technoligies which can be placed virtually anywhere without receiving windfarm interference. These systems have been demonstrated with good results however they are still very much in the development stage and requires some robust work to get it to full approval status
Windfarm issues not only cause unwanted clutter in traffic area they can also cause track suppression, track deviation and make the radar less sensitive (to name a few ATC issues) as signals are suppressed in and around windfarms, ac returns are picked up from multipath results caused by turbine blades, and radars noise threeholds are increased to cope with the clutter.
Not too sure if that helps, hopefully it should
At this present moment in time the only mitagation "proven" to work is infill radars with terrain shielding however the loss of low level coverage can be a major concern to operators especially in areas of low flying mil jests etc.
There are a couple of current sensor manufactuers who believe that they have deveoped/ improved their current radar technologies enough to differentiate between moving targets and turbine blades with good results(and have currently installed this at at least three locations, (i can think of off hand).
There are also some new companies who are developing new infill technoligies which can be placed virtually anywhere without receiving windfarm interference. These systems have been demonstrated with good results however they are still very much in the development stage and requires some robust work to get it to full approval status
Windfarm issues not only cause unwanted clutter in traffic area they can also cause track suppression, track deviation and make the radar less sensitive (to name a few ATC issues) as signals are suppressed in and around windfarms, ac returns are picked up from multipath results caused by turbine blades, and radars noise threeholds are increased to cope with the clutter.
Not too sure if that helps, hopefully it should
A company with which a neighbour and I were working with, with a view to having turbines erected on our adjacent properties, has now abandoned the proposal because of widespread objections over large areas of the country by the MOD on grounds outlined above. For example virtually all of SW Cornwall is now subject to these objections, which is a pity as, other than offshore, we are one of the best areas in the country with regard to sustained wind speeds.
I would be very interested to hear of any solutions which may have come to light that would satisfy the current objections.
One thing that mystifies me, although we live in the Culdrose MATZ, a commercial wind farm has recently opened within the MATZ with much higher turbines than the ones we are hoping to install - this seems to have gone through without any problem. Any idea how?
By the way, does the fairly cheap solution of fitting each mast with a transponder, permanently set to squawk "I am a turbine" solve any of the aforementioned problems?
I would be very interested to hear of any solutions which may have come to light that would satisfy the current objections.
One thing that mystifies me, although we live in the Culdrose MATZ, a commercial wind farm has recently opened within the MATZ with much higher turbines than the ones we are hoping to install - this seems to have gone through without any problem. Any idea how?
By the way, does the fairly cheap solution of fitting each mast with a transponder, permanently set to squawk "I am a turbine" solve any of the aforementioned problems?
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@TTN: Putting SSR transponders on the masts will not help. The position of wind turbine masts are very well known. The problem is that the masts and blades represent very big reflectors for Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) RF signals. Modern PSR work by detecting the "doppler" content of the reflected RF signal. Doppler is the effect that increases the frequency of the reflected signal as the object moves towards the radar and reduces the frequency as the object moves away from the radar. By detecting the doppler frequency the radar derives the direction and velocity of the object. So with no wind, wind turbine blades have zero doppler content and are therefore ignored by the radar. However turning blades can give the same level of signal as a 747!
The company I work for has successfully demonstrated, to ANSPs and scientific bodies, techniques in the radar equipment that mitigate the effects of wind turbines so it is not necessary to go to the expense of in fill radars so expect to see more wind farms in future!.
The company I work for has successfully demonstrated, to ANSPs and scientific bodies, techniques in the radar equipment that mitigate the effects of wind turbines so it is not necessary to go to the expense of in fill radars so expect to see more wind farms in future!.
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About regulation
Just a short notice. Every country established a construction regulation especially near the airports.
Because of the clutter issue FAA said and NATO raised these issue too that no wind turbines approved within 500m radius around the radar.
KK
Because of the clutter issue FAA said and NATO raised these issue too that no wind turbines approved within 500m radius around the radar.
KK
It's a fascinating subject and for various reasons I've been living and breathing it for months now.
Evance Wind; my take is that the solution will be found at the radar technology end before the wind turbine. Vestas experimented with radar absorbent paint a couple of years ago however the coating was so heavy it destroyed efficiency and added too much stress to the supporting structures. There has been more headway made with blade design, but given a dream load factor is something like 30%, with the odd wind farm being as low as 10%, it would further degrade that. Also, to change the properties of the wind turbines mid stream in the planning process could materially affect the outcome of the application!
As has been stated above, the race to find a solutions looks set to be won by enhancements to the radar software and hardware. Trouble is, apart from crude RAG (range azimuth gating) and aerial tilting, there's very little that's met with regulatory approval yet, and the fix is expensive. This is detrimental to small wind developments as the developer will usually do a deal with the ANSP (we wont object if you fix our radar) as part of the planning application process.
Evance Wind; my take is that the solution will be found at the radar technology end before the wind turbine. Vestas experimented with radar absorbent paint a couple of years ago however the coating was so heavy it destroyed efficiency and added too much stress to the supporting structures. There has been more headway made with blade design, but given a dream load factor is something like 30%, with the odd wind farm being as low as 10%, it would further degrade that. Also, to change the properties of the wind turbines mid stream in the planning process could materially affect the outcome of the application!
As has been stated above, the race to find a solutions looks set to be won by enhancements to the radar software and hardware. Trouble is, apart from crude RAG (range azimuth gating) and aerial tilting, there's very little that's met with regulatory approval yet, and the fix is expensive. This is detrimental to small wind developments as the developer will usually do a deal with the ANSP (we wont object if you fix our radar) as part of the planning application process.
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Please no! Such an inefficient method of generating power with massive environmental costs to manufacture the damned things.
The reality, IMHO, the whole business should be known as windfarm subsidy generation, not power generation.
BD
The reality, IMHO, the whole business should be known as windfarm subsidy generation, not power generation.
BD
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BD
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Excellent news!
So, just sidetracking for a moment, will the 'ahead of schedule, super-nuclear-powered new common workstation' be equipped with iTec, iFacts, EFD, iPads or what?
How common will it be, how much CO2 will it produce?
is it an innovative solution?
So, just sidetracking for a moment, will the 'ahead of schedule, super-nuclear-powered new common workstation' be equipped with iTec, iFacts, EFD, iPads or what?
How common will it be, how much CO2 will it produce?
is it an innovative solution?
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EvanceWind you seem to have missed one hugely important aspect of siting in that the most significant question perhaps should be: "Are we going to have an impact on any existing airfield or the associated approaches?" Is this ever given consideration in your siting plans?
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Evance Wind,
I have recently been reading your company website. It seems to be full of hot air.
Statistics abound, but no mention anywhere of how much juice one of your small windmills will produce. Will it power a small lamp? A kettle? What about a Hammond Organ?
Like the company logo. I had a Spirograph too, they were brill.
I have recently been reading your company website. It seems to be full of hot air.
Statistics abound, but no mention anywhere of how much juice one of your small windmills will produce. Will it power a small lamp? A kettle? What about a Hammond Organ?
Like the company logo. I had a Spirograph too, they were brill.
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Now I think I'll take a guess at how much a R9000 5kW wind turbine will produce. My guess it will produce a maximum of about 5kW?
I believe thats about 2 kettles...
Evance Wind - Small Wind Turbines
They are 18' (5.5m) diameter. Is that large enough to cause radar issues? It looks like they deal with individual turbines - not entire farms.
At a maximum of 25.5 meters high (about 70') - I suggest that these are unlikely to cause a problem to airfields unless they are put where late finals should be. You get trees much taller than that!
I believe thats about 2 kettles...
Evance Wind - Small Wind Turbines
They are 18' (5.5m) diameter. Is that large enough to cause radar issues? It looks like they deal with individual turbines - not entire farms.
At a maximum of 25.5 meters high (about 70') - I suggest that these are unlikely to cause a problem to airfields unless they are put where late finals should be. You get trees much taller than that!