FABs, ACCs, future ATCO prerequisites/treatment
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All very interesting stuff this.
When I joined CAA/NATS, my ATC Licence contained a medical certificate.
It stated that the licence-holder, (me), met the standards for a Class 1 medical. A proud moment, honestly.
My most recent sustificate informs me that I meet the standards for a Class 3 medical.
Next year the Olympic Games are being held in a small town a mere 200 miles from Mt. Belzoni. (The logo was allegedly designed by Wolff-Olins).
Is it therefore appropriate that our athletes set the equivalent standard and simply 'go for bronze'?
When I joined CAA/NATS, my ATC Licence contained a medical certificate.
It stated that the licence-holder, (me), met the standards for a Class 1 medical. A proud moment, honestly.
My most recent sustificate informs me that I meet the standards for a Class 3 medical.
Next year the Olympic Games are being held in a small town a mere 200 miles from Mt. Belzoni. (The logo was allegedly designed by Wolff-Olins).
Is it therefore appropriate that our athletes set the equivalent standard and simply 'go for bronze'?
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From AeroPolitics to Economics
The EU ATC Licensing is another important development for European ATC, FABS and all that.
The new licensing rules will remain an ineffective step until each state enacts the legislation/policy that requires that the new European Commission regulation is adopted by the local ATC providers.
Once enacted controllers will be able to follow the money and go and work in the higher paid locations if they want to - until all the vacancies are filled anyway.
Losing trained staff is what will drive the lower paying employers to up their pay rates, to retain people. This has happend in South Africa, where too many ATCO's have upped sticks to take jobs in the Gulf from what I hear. Basic rules of supply and demand can always be relied on to drive human behaviour..
From AeroPolitics to Economics!
Whoever said ATC was about managing aircraft!?
Katie
The new licensing rules will remain an ineffective step until each state enacts the legislation/policy that requires that the new European Commission regulation is adopted by the local ATC providers.
Once enacted controllers will be able to follow the money and go and work in the higher paid locations if they want to - until all the vacancies are filled anyway.
Losing trained staff is what will drive the lower paying employers to up their pay rates, to retain people. This has happend in South Africa, where too many ATCO's have upped sticks to take jobs in the Gulf from what I hear. Basic rules of supply and demand can always be relied on to drive human behaviour..
From AeroPolitics to Economics!
Whoever said ATC was about managing aircraft!?
Katie
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Kiwitraveller,
from now on, the overall controllers' pay will decrease.
Slightly, but surely.
Half the unit cost in 2020 will mean less controllers paid less. It will also mean less investment to improve and keep the systems working.
There's no miracle.
Less money means less money, whatever the way you turn it around.
Companies prefer spending billions in on-board systems...
This is their choice, they'll get the result they've paid for.
And probably call us back to the rescue afterwards. This is just the continuation of the hysteresis which began with Reagan.
I've already told my daughter not to become a controller. Too many risks for not enough support from the management (to say the least).
I'm not talking about pay.
I would happily give 10 or 15% of my pay, just to see the politicians listen to real control specialists (qualified on job controllers) and refrain from making further mistakes, before it's too late.
But I'm afraid it wouldn't help much anyway...
from now on, the overall controllers' pay will decrease.
Slightly, but surely.
Half the unit cost in 2020 will mean less controllers paid less. It will also mean less investment to improve and keep the systems working.
There's no miracle.
Less money means less money, whatever the way you turn it around.
Companies prefer spending billions in on-board systems...
This is their choice, they'll get the result they've paid for.
And probably call us back to the rescue afterwards. This is just the continuation of the hysteresis which began with Reagan.
I've already told my daughter not to become a controller. Too many risks for not enough support from the management (to say the least).
I'm not talking about pay.
I would happily give 10 or 15% of my pay, just to see the politicians listen to real control specialists (qualified on job controllers) and refrain from making further mistakes, before it's too late.
But I'm afraid it wouldn't help much anyway...
Last edited by BrATCO; 5th Sep 2011 at 12:40. Reason: wording
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The new licensing rules will remain an ineffective step until each state enacts the legislation/policy that requires that the new European Commission regulation is adopted by the local ATC providers.
Once enacted controllers will be able to follow the money and go and work in the higher paid locations if they want to - until all the vacancies are filled anyway.
Losing trained staff is what will drive the lower paying employers to up their pay rates, to retain people. This has happend in South Africa, where too many ATCO's have upped sticks to take jobs in the Gulf from what I hear. Basic rules of supply and demand can always be relied on to drive human behaviour..
CANSO was established with one key goal in mind, collaboration to reduce terms and conditions of ATCs to 'improve productivity'. The "no poaching deal" struck between members in the early 2000's was a classic example of restricting trade.
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Yes true but who will be following the money, Eastern Europeans moving West, following the money, undercutting those ensconced?
If things are 'standardized', yet if nothing still changes, then you just get the what everyone else has said(Thanks again for the info all!) about single EU sky never working out.@BrATCO - Is that solid news or just rumor/opinion/yet-to-be-disclosed-fact? If latter then ->>
Pegase Driver
Mobility is nice to have but it is another red herring for ATCOs.
Moving from small Tower to small Tower is OK. But Good money is made in the large Centres , not in small towers.
And in ACCs, 3/4 of the licence is local OJT.
To convert an ACC controller to another ACC is a very lengthy process ( up to a year OJT) and you better do it before you're 35 to have good chances of requalifying . To convert a controller from a small TWR to a large ACC makes hardly no difference from Ab initio recruitment.
It will work for a few, sure , but you will find 95% will stay with their current employer. Even if they want to move en masse ( e.g Spain) all those above 40 will probably never be taken by anyone else.
Controllers are not like Pilots in that respect .
Moving from small Tower to small Tower is OK. But Good money is made in the large Centres , not in small towers.
And in ACCs, 3/4 of the licence is local OJT.
To convert an ACC controller to another ACC is a very lengthy process ( up to a year OJT) and you better do it before you're 35 to have good chances of requalifying . To convert a controller from a small TWR to a large ACC makes hardly no difference from Ab initio recruitment.
It will work for a few, sure , but you will find 95% will stay with their current employer. Even if they want to move en masse ( e.g Spain) all those above 40 will probably never be taken by anyone else.
Controllers are not like Pilots in that respect .
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Mcstiofan,
opinions based on analyses of facts and project/laws.
Even though a bit long, I'll try to explain :
- "from now on, the overall controllers' pay will decrease.
Slightly, but surely." : opinion, even though facts show that many ANSPs don't raise the pays anymore, which compared to inflation, means a loss.
Fact : pay improvement for me was around 0.5% in the last 3 or 4 years.
- "Half the unit cost in 2020 will mean less controllers paid less." : that's a matter of facts. Eurocontrol wants unit cost to be halved, as Kiwitraveller said in her post #12. Same goal for CANSO.
"It will also mean less investment to improve and keep the systems working." : once again, matter of facts. No arms, no chocolate... (reference to a horrible French joke I could translate on demand)
- "There's no miracle." : fact.
- "Less money means less money, whatever the way you turn it around." : opinion which, I come to think, might also be a matter of facts.
- "Companies prefer spending billions in on-board systems...": read somewhere in this CANSO publication :
http://www.eurocontrol.int/prc/galle...s/PRR_2010.pdf
opinions based on analyses of facts and project/laws.
Even though a bit long, I'll try to explain :
- "from now on, the overall controllers' pay will decrease.
Slightly, but surely." : opinion, even though facts show that many ANSPs don't raise the pays anymore, which compared to inflation, means a loss.
Fact : pay improvement for me was around 0.5% in the last 3 or 4 years.
- "Half the unit cost in 2020 will mean less controllers paid less." : that's a matter of facts. Eurocontrol wants unit cost to be halved, as Kiwitraveller said in her post #12. Same goal for CANSO.
- Now step forward the European Union, political masters who set political objectives for ATC in Europe way back in about 2004. The EU, which is also an organization of Governments, said that ATC in Europe should by 2020 be able to: Provide three times the ATM capacity, at half the unit cost, while improving environmental performance by 10% and improving safety performance by a factor of ten.
"It will also mean less investment to improve and keep the systems working." : once again, matter of facts. No arms, no chocolate... (reference to a horrible French joke I could translate on demand)
- "There's no miracle." : fact.
- "Less money means less money, whatever the way you turn it around." : opinion which, I come to think, might also be a matter of facts.
- "Companies prefer spending billions in on-board systems...": read somewhere in this CANSO publication :
http://www.eurocontrol.int/prc/galle...s/PRR_2010.pdf
It is time that we put the huge amounts of money spent to work, to deliver change and efficiency where it is needed, not just on the ground, but in the cockpit. Perhaps it is time to refocus.
When CANSO says "we will spend", that means ANSPs will spend money they took from the companies who let do. Not to mention aircraft builders who participate this projects and will also spend money that companies will reimbourse when they'll buy the planes...
- "This is their choice, they'll get the result they've paid for. " : matter of facts... Even though they could pay more than they will get (opinion).
- "And probably call us back to the rescue afterwards. This is just the continuation of the hysteresis which began with Reagan." : just a guess, based on what happened in the last 40 years.
In France since 1960-70, in the USA since the 80', in Spain since the 90' : terms and conditions going up and down, and back when politicians understand controllers were well treated for good reasons, before they forget again...
In France since 1960-70, in the USA since the 80', in Spain since the 90' : terms and conditions going up and down, and back when politicians understand controllers were well treated for good reasons, before they forget again...
- "I've already told my daughter not to become a controller." : Fact. She's 17, searching her way.
- "Too many risks for not enough support from the management (to say the least)." : opinion (obviously), based on facts.
In it's PRR 2010, Eurocontrol says :
In it's PRR 2010, Eurocontrol says :
The five largest States plan to decrease en-route unit costs between 2009 and 2014. The initiatives taken in France and in Spain to address performance issues show that cost-effectiveness improvements could be achievable when there is a strong political and managerial commitment.
- "I'm not talking about pay.
I would happily give 10 or 15% of my pay, just to see the politicians listen to real control specialists (qualified on job controllers)" : Fact
I would happily give 10 or 15% of my pay, just to see the politicians listen to real control specialists (qualified on job controllers)" : Fact
- "and refrain from making further mistakes, before it's too late.
But I'm afraid it wouldn't help much anyway...
" : opinion based on contemplation and amazement in front of the things going on.
But I'm afraid it wouldn't help much anyway...
" : opinion based on contemplation and amazement in front of the things going on.NO way I could be !
!Last edited by BrATCO; 5th Sep 2011 at 20:32. Reason: Typos and little details
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The new licensing rules will remain an ineffective step until each state enacts the legislation/policy that requires that the new European Commission regulation is adopted by the local ATC providers.
If you are saying that everyone in the EU has to start following the rules before it has any effect, well, I guess that is true. But it shouldn't be a problem because the regulation effectively says the same as the ATCO Directive did (and which EU Member States had to transpose into their national law). The provisions in the Directive related to licensing and approval of training providers had to be put into national law by May 2008 - the bit about language endorsements had to be in place a couple of years later. With just a couple of exceptions, all EU Member States had transposed the Directive by May 2008 or very soon after.
So, in fact, very little has changed because of these new EASA rules....although you could be forgiven for thinking that EASA had re-invented sliced bread if you read their Press Release.
Has it made it easier for ATCOs to move around? The answer is, probably, a little, maybe. Certainly there are a few ATCOs working in countries that they didn't get their licence from, but whether this was made possible by the Directive is probably debatable. Whilst the European Commission may have managed to achieve 'increased mobility of the ATCO workforce' through the Directive - and now the new regulation - it has effectively blocked entry to the European region for controllers whose licenses were issued outside the EU. Anyone in this position, no matter how many years of experience or whatever that they may have, now seems to have to go back and start from ab-initio training in order to work in the EU.
As to controllers' pay, there's always been downward pressure on pay, as there is for most other occupations, but ultimately market forces will surely win out. The demand for controllers forecast by ANSPs - which is based on the eternally optimistic expectations of the benefits of automation and, now, SESAR, which bears an increasing similarity to a great white elephant as each day passes - and for which they (the ANSPs) are training is substantially lower than that predicted by controllers and their unions and associations. The reality is likely to be somewhere in the middle; if I had to guess, it will be somewhere far closer to the controllers' estimates. If that is the case in just a few years a controller with a bit of experience and the necessary skills, including, importantly, useful language proficiencies will be able to name his/her price.
Indeed, this seems almost to bring us full circle. One of the Commission's principal reasons for creating FABs is to increase efficiency and to contribute to reducing costs. Strangely, in my view anyway, the Commission has not done all this to reduce controllers salaries. It's the ANSPs that want to do that. Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose......the being a European thread and all that.
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AeroPolitics
Spitoon
Good post and spot on perspective.
When it comes to politics and politicians - in which I tend to include the Commission - they are not interested in ATC, unless there is an incident, nor do they care about controllers pay. Remember that the gravy train makes regular stops at Brussels! Pots and Kettles come to mind!
What the Commission do seem to care about is making sure that Europe compares reasonably favourably with the US. Which goes back to the political objectives of Single Sky and the desire to halve unit costs for each flight. These are real concerns and real objectives. And yes of course the system needs to continue to be safe or safer.
At the end of the day, costs will come down and controller pay will find a market level, with some going countries up and some reducing.
As to the FABs, as I said before they are most likely to fail because they don't adequately reflect the operating environment. But the EU will want to see some success, what is not yet clear is how that will be achieved.
Katie
Good post and spot on perspective.
When it comes to politics and politicians - in which I tend to include the Commission - they are not interested in ATC, unless there is an incident, nor do they care about controllers pay. Remember that the gravy train makes regular stops at Brussels! Pots and Kettles come to mind!
What the Commission do seem to care about is making sure that Europe compares reasonably favourably with the US. Which goes back to the political objectives of Single Sky and the desire to halve unit costs for each flight. These are real concerns and real objectives. And yes of course the system needs to continue to be safe or safer.
At the end of the day, costs will come down and controller pay will find a market level, with some going countries up and some reducing.
As to the FABs, as I said before they are most likely to fail because they don't adequately reflect the operating environment. But the EU will want to see some success, what is not yet clear is how that will be achieved.
Katie
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Hmmm interesting two sides to the matter of.....matters
I guess overall it is giving me pretty much the picture I was getting anyhow, but wanted to be sure that it wasn't just misconceptions due to not actually being in the industry.
@BrATCO: I came across ATC by pure accident at the same age as your daughter is now. Some years into "should I"/"shouldn't I", while dodging other life commitments, I'm fast approaching some of those age deadlines for ATC, both official and logical, so I know what you are saying about being worried. I'm with ya there!
I guess overall it is giving me pretty much the picture I was getting anyhow, but wanted to be sure that it wasn't just misconceptions due to not actually being in the industry.
@BrATCO: I came across ATC by pure accident at the same age as your daughter is now. Some years into "should I"/"shouldn't I", while dodging other life commitments, I'm fast approaching some of those age deadlines for ATC, both official and logical, so I know what you are saying about being worried. I'm with ya there!
