Small Aerodrome ATC
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Small Aerodrome ATC
Hi all,
firstly, I appologise in advance for the probable stupidity of this question however I'll crack on!
I skydive at a small airfield quite close to Doncaster. The ATC arrangement there seems to be a raised platform, a pair of binoculars and a VHF radio.
So, ordinarily I would suppose that the radio op on this platform / tower is a FISO? BUT..
Being so close to Doncaster, apparently it's in their airspace. Apparently the radio op guy is in close contact with the ATC over at the Airport but it leads me to wonder:
"Why would light aircraft from one airfield have a FISO (or other) on site, when they are in controlled airspace of a more major aerodrome?"
Have I got the wrong end of the stick on something? this is mostly me supposing how it works. the Facts I have are as follows:
Thanks in advance for your stupid question busting abilities!
Phil
firstly, I appologise in advance for the probable stupidity of this question however I'll crack on!
I skydive at a small airfield quite close to Doncaster. The ATC arrangement there seems to be a raised platform, a pair of binoculars and a VHF radio.
So, ordinarily I would suppose that the radio op on this platform / tower is a FISO? BUT..
Being so close to Doncaster, apparently it's in their airspace. Apparently the radio op guy is in close contact with the ATC over at the Airport but it leads me to wonder:
"Why would light aircraft from one airfield have a FISO (or other) on site, when they are in controlled airspace of a more major aerodrome?"
Have I got the wrong end of the stick on something? this is mostly me supposing how it works. the Facts I have are as follows:
Thanks in advance for your stupid question busting abilities!
Phil
The person on the raised platform must hold some form of qualification (either a FISO Licence valid for that airfield or an A/G Radio Operators Certificate signed by the licencee of the radio station) in order to communicate with an aircraft via a ground based radio station. An FRTOL is not valid for this purpose. Additionally, if this airfield is inside the regulated airspace controlled by DSA, their permission must be obtained by some means for :
a) The dropping aircraft to climb in to their airspace
b) The drop to take place.
c) The dropping aircraft to descend in their airspace.
a) The dropping aircraft to climb in to their airspace
b) The drop to take place.
c) The dropping aircraft to descend in their airspace.
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I don't think Doncaster is Class A airspace but even in Class A there are several airfields with FISOs - Fairoaks and Denham to name but two.
I don't know the local arrangements you refer to but if the airstrip is some way from the main airfield it is obviously desirable to have someone on-site. The main airfield might be able to control the airspace, but not what's happening on the ground, for example. I imagine that there is some sort of local agreement between the two places and the "controller" at the smaller airfield liaises with the larger one to let them know what's going on.
I don't know the local arrangements you refer to but if the airstrip is some way from the main airfield it is obviously desirable to have someone on-site. The main airfield might be able to control the airspace, but not what's happening on the ground, for example. I imagine that there is some sort of local agreement between the two places and the "controller" at the smaller airfield liaises with the larger one to let them know what's going on.
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Thanks for the info gents, it's appreciated.
It seems to me as those the radio op / FISO at the aerodrome has one VHF radio, with which he (to loosely use the term) controls the usually 2 aircraft departing from the aerodrome. I presume he spends the rest of the time notifying the local ATC/requesting permissions on the same radio. - Or is that unlikely? - presumably it is illegal to change frequencies on your only set and thereby fail to keep a constant listening watch?
I'm probably getting ahead of myself, and I don't have the facts on this, just pondering!
Phil
It seems to me as those the radio op / FISO at the aerodrome has one VHF radio, with which he (to loosely use the term) controls the usually 2 aircraft departing from the aerodrome. I presume he spends the rest of the time notifying the local ATC/requesting permissions on the same radio. - Or is that unlikely? - presumably it is illegal to change frequencies on your only set and thereby fail to keep a constant listening watch?
I'm probably getting ahead of myself, and I don't have the facts on this, just pondering!
Phil
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Illegal? - I don't think two aerodromes can use the airband to liaise with each other, unless there is special dispensation. Doesn't have a phone?
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 6th Jan 2011 at 15:04.
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Phil: I'm guessing you're talking about Hibaldstow. It's not in Doncaster's (or anyone else's) airspace but all activities there have to be conducted with the permission of Humberside ATC because their approaches/departures pass a short distance to the east of Hibaldstow. Humberside will have a formal Letter of Agreement with the club at Hibaldstow which specifies how they are to maintain contact, permissions required and the area within which parachuting can be carried out.
Parachute clubs which are the sole operators at an airfield normally use the generic parachuting Air-to-Ground frequency 129.9 but I see Hibaldstow has its own frequency 129.925.
NS
Parachute clubs which are the sole operators at an airfield normally use the generic parachuting Air-to-Ground frequency 129.9 but I see Hibaldstow has its own frequency 129.925.
NS
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If it's Hibalstow we're talking about then both Humberside and Doncaster ATC are made aware of any Skydiving Activity.
Humberside then alerts Scottish Centre who restrict westbound descents until clear of the Parachuting area.
It seems to work well enough..only the Mil seem left out of the loop
Humberside then alerts Scottish Centre who restrict westbound descents until clear of the Parachuting area.
It seems to work well enough..only the Mil seem left out of the loop
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Yeah, it's Hibb. I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, just intensely curious! :P
That's interesting about the airspace thing, I can consider that rumour thoroughly BUSTED!
Thanks all for your replies.
Phil
That's interesting about the airspace thing, I can consider that rumour thoroughly BUSTED!
Thanks all for your replies.
Phil
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I'm pretty sure that apart from Scottish Control and Doncaster Radar, Scottish Mil, Waddington and often Coningsby get told when Hibaldstow becomes active. The Mil are certainly not left out of the loop!
Scottish Control will approve (or otherwise) the use of the airway up to FL150 (the airway starts at FL125 if I remember correctly), everyone else then gets told about it by Humberside.
And yes, the parachute aircraft talk to Humberside Radar as soon as they get airborne from Hibaldstow and usually change back to their own frequency somewhere below FL50 if there is no other traffic to affect. The local guy at Hibaldstow doesn't 'control' the aircraft. The aircraft usually tell him what they are doing and he/she will provide the pilots with information.
The aircraft will have two boxes, on one they will listen out to Humberside, on the other they will listen out to their own airfield radio and they will be in contact with both simultaneously.
Yes, there is a formal letter of agreement in place.
Scottish Control will approve (or otherwise) the use of the airway up to FL150 (the airway starts at FL125 if I remember correctly), everyone else then gets told about it by Humberside.
And yes, the parachute aircraft talk to Humberside Radar as soon as they get airborne from Hibaldstow and usually change back to their own frequency somewhere below FL50 if there is no other traffic to affect. The local guy at Hibaldstow doesn't 'control' the aircraft. The aircraft usually tell him what they are doing and he/she will provide the pilots with information.
The aircraft will have two boxes, on one they will listen out to Humberside, on the other they will listen out to their own airfield radio and they will be in contact with both simultaneously.
Yes, there is a formal letter of agreement in place.
I would imagine the guy at Hibaldstow is an A/G Radio operator then, hopefully with a signed Certificate of Competence to make it legal. Too many people still assume that their FRTOL covers them for this, but it doesn't, and the fact that they are allocated a discrete frequency rather than using the common one indicates the radio station must have a licencee to sign the C of C.
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chevvron: is it possible that it could be an Operation Control Communications (OPC) station instead?
If it could be, I'm under the impression that a certificate of competence isn't needed, so long as the Radio Op only communicates with company aircraft?
Cheers,
Phil
If it could be, I'm under the impression that a certificate of competence isn't needed, so long as the Radio Op only communicates with company aircraft?
Cheers,
Phil
Highly unlikely. The type of information which may be provided by an OPC is not the sort of info needed for paradropping. In any case, as it's an allocated frequency rather than a 'common' one, it would have to be notified to the CAA as 'Ops' or 'A/G.'
