Dolce Vita!!!
Join Date: Dec 2006
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atcsstudent-
In Spain, everybody has been thinking about us for more than a year now since the government campaign started against us, calling us privileged, thieves, blackmailers, rich, that we do not work at all,.... etc etc etc, and that during more than one year, I repeat they've been saying all this about us for more than one year day after day, day after day.
These are just some examples, so I tell you one thing, if you read on the newspapers everyday that you are a kind of terrorist, plus all the things I've described and a lot more, a lot of you people who critice us would have walked out for sure.
I'm sorry but you just didn't refer to any of my questions/views.
What I said was not result of "propaganda" as you say.
I have only listed a few facts as an example and asked for explenation because I do not see logic behind it myself. And still waiting that someone gives his/her views about it:
How to explain the sustainability of the following:
1. Spain has 2-3 times lower living costs compared to Benelux countries or Germany
2. Spain has 2-3 times lower air traffic levels within it's airspace compared to Benelux countries or Germany
3. Spain is in more difficult financial position compared to Benelux countries or Germany
4. AENA ATCOs have 2 times bigger salaries compared to MUAC, DFS, LVNL, Belgocontrol
Our wage was: wage for 1200 hours a year plus overtime.
We can not talk about overtime, but they cut around a 30-35% of our wage, then 3 o 4 royal decrees imposing working conditions (I think, and please tell me if I'm wrong that in UK, German, France, Italy,.. the working hours except overtime is around 1400hours yearly),and increasing the working hours to 1670.
Since I am an ATCO myself for 15 years we could talk about working hours and overtime for ages ( rules on paper vs shift roster vs actual time worked)
.
We haven't been able to negotiate with aena, and that is a right that every employee, the union, has.
There was a general strike in Spain september the 29th, and we had to work 100% of the controllers, have we a right to strike???? I don't think so.
I agree with you what you said here above,but do you agree or dissagree with my opinion about "walking out"action. Could you state what is achivement that you got with it:
The point is that some ATCOs in AENA behaved very irresponsible (as teenagers) when they just walked out of the job one day in December! This did not help to anyone and it will not help certainly in the future to any ATCO wherever they are.
With that action, those who "walked out" of the job, showed the following general (bad) image about ATCOs as a profesionalists (people):
1- ATCOs are irresponsible, not reliable people who take unpredictable actions that cause damage to many innocent people who are not involved in AENA problems at all.
2- ATCOs do not care if they derogate level of safety for our people who live more difficult lives but ATCOs, with much lover salaries fighting to raise their families
3- ATCOs are rather ready to escalate the problem but to offer possible solution
4- ATCOs ignore the fact that they have 3-4 times bigger salaries (even with bad T&C) compared to their family members, relatives, neighbours, average citizen in the country.
This action can cause the damage to ATCO profession.
And the most important if we do not stop this they will continue with all european ATCos (in Spain there's an airline, vueling, where the pilots earn 100-1200€ monthly, do you want that for all of us???)
By the way our monthly wages range, 2700€-7500€(this if you have been working for more than 30 years.
I have already said, it is not important what is actual amount you receive neto per month.
What matters are the principles and your living environment. Do they go well together , are the sustainable?
Do you want to say that 4500euros is not 3 times more than avarage salary in Spain? How much majority of the people around you receive today e.g. teacher, nurse, engeener in Airbus or Indra, GP, train driver, pilots you mentioned etc.
Do you say that economic conditions around you are the same like 5 years ago and you do not accept neccessary alterations in working conditions?
Regards,
In Spain, everybody has been thinking about us for more than a year now since the government campaign started against us, calling us privileged, thieves, blackmailers, rich, that we do not work at all,.... etc etc etc, and that during more than one year, I repeat they've been saying all this about us for more than one year day after day, day after day.
These are just some examples, so I tell you one thing, if you read on the newspapers everyday that you are a kind of terrorist, plus all the things I've described and a lot more, a lot of you people who critice us would have walked out for sure.
I'm sorry but you just didn't refer to any of my questions/views.
What I said was not result of "propaganda" as you say.
I have only listed a few facts as an example and asked for explenation because I do not see logic behind it myself. And still waiting that someone gives his/her views about it:
How to explain the sustainability of the following:
1. Spain has 2-3 times lower living costs compared to Benelux countries or Germany
2. Spain has 2-3 times lower air traffic levels within it's airspace compared to Benelux countries or Germany
3. Spain is in more difficult financial position compared to Benelux countries or Germany
4. AENA ATCOs have 2 times bigger salaries compared to MUAC, DFS, LVNL, Belgocontrol
Our wage was: wage for 1200 hours a year plus overtime.
We can not talk about overtime, but they cut around a 30-35% of our wage, then 3 o 4 royal decrees imposing working conditions (I think, and please tell me if I'm wrong that in UK, German, France, Italy,.. the working hours except overtime is around 1400hours yearly),and increasing the working hours to 1670.
Since I am an ATCO myself for 15 years we could talk about working hours and overtime for ages ( rules on paper vs shift roster vs actual time worked)
. We haven't been able to negotiate with aena, and that is a right that every employee, the union, has.
There was a general strike in Spain september the 29th, and we had to work 100% of the controllers, have we a right to strike???? I don't think so.
I agree with you what you said here above,but do you agree or dissagree with my opinion about "walking out"action. Could you state what is achivement that you got with it:
The point is that some ATCOs in AENA behaved very irresponsible (as teenagers) when they just walked out of the job one day in December! This did not help to anyone and it will not help certainly in the future to any ATCO wherever they are.
With that action, those who "walked out" of the job, showed the following general (bad) image about ATCOs as a profesionalists (people):
1- ATCOs are irresponsible, not reliable people who take unpredictable actions that cause damage to many innocent people who are not involved in AENA problems at all.
2- ATCOs do not care if they derogate level of safety for our people who live more difficult lives but ATCOs, with much lover salaries fighting to raise their families
3- ATCOs are rather ready to escalate the problem but to offer possible solution
4- ATCOs ignore the fact that they have 3-4 times bigger salaries (even with bad T&C) compared to their family members, relatives, neighbours, average citizen in the country.
This action can cause the damage to ATCO profession.
And the most important if we do not stop this they will continue with all european ATCos (in Spain there's an airline, vueling, where the pilots earn 100-1200€ monthly, do you want that for all of us???)
By the way our monthly wages range, 2700€-7500€(this if you have been working for more than 30 years.
I have already said, it is not important what is actual amount you receive neto per month.
What matters are the principles and your living environment. Do they go well together , are the sustainable?
Do you want to say that 4500euros is not 3 times more than avarage salary in Spain? How much majority of the people around you receive today e.g. teacher, nurse, engeener in Airbus or Indra, GP, train driver, pilots you mentioned etc.
Do you say that economic conditions around you are the same like 5 years ago and you do not accept neccessary alterations in working conditions?
Regards,
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Blue Island
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1. Spain has 2-3 times lower living costs compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Are you really sure? Have you ever been to Ibiza, Palma, Madrid, Sevilla, Barcelona..?
Spain has 2-3 times lower air traffic levels within it's airspace compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Not sure about that, but let me tell you, now aena creates new sectors and put the aircraft they think is safe with no safety studies at all.
Spain is in more difficult financial position compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Correct, but that doesn't give AENA the right to treat us as criminals and not let in us negotiate, in our negotiations we wanted to reduce our wages 25-30% and increase our working time about 20%, and they didn't agree, the problem is the lack of controllers (and they deny that)
AENA ATCOs have 2 times bigger salaries compared to MUAC, DFS, LVNL, Belgocontrol
No way, please tell me your net salary monthly, as I suppose you work for MUAC, DFS, LVNL,...
And please tell me your yearly working hours, as you didn't say, as I now in NATS they work 6 on 4 off, in Germany 5 on 3 off, .... and if you do that and take off the holidays you do not work more than 1450 hours for sure.
I now our salaries are good, but we have never complained about that, is the government who is putting that excuse to attack us as hard as they can, and that is the reason why I'm telling to you all.
So tell me what would have been the right solution for us let us bully and see what happens, no way, we have to fight for our rights, and do not let us squash by anyone, I'm sorry but that is what I think.
If anyone comes to Spain to work I tell you now, you will leave as soon as possible.
Regards.
Are you really sure? Have you ever been to Ibiza, Palma, Madrid, Sevilla, Barcelona..?
Spain has 2-3 times lower air traffic levels within it's airspace compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Not sure about that, but let me tell you, now aena creates new sectors and put the aircraft they think is safe with no safety studies at all.
Spain is in more difficult financial position compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Correct, but that doesn't give AENA the right to treat us as criminals and not let in us negotiate, in our negotiations we wanted to reduce our wages 25-30% and increase our working time about 20%, and they didn't agree, the problem is the lack of controllers (and they deny that)
AENA ATCOs have 2 times bigger salaries compared to MUAC, DFS, LVNL, Belgocontrol
No way, please tell me your net salary monthly, as I suppose you work for MUAC, DFS, LVNL,...
And please tell me your yearly working hours, as you didn't say, as I now in NATS they work 6 on 4 off, in Germany 5 on 3 off, .... and if you do that and take off the holidays you do not work more than 1450 hours for sure.
I now our salaries are good, but we have never complained about that, is the government who is putting that excuse to attack us as hard as they can, and that is the reason why I'm telling to you all.
So tell me what would have been the right solution for us let us bully and see what happens, no way, we have to fight for our rights, and do not let us squash by anyone, I'm sorry but that is what I think.
If anyone comes to Spain to work I tell you now, you will leave as soon as possible.
Regards.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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You are right japanac, the economic situation is pretty bad so we all should work the same hours in every job and get the same money, but call this Communist Republic of Europe instead. What a load of demagogic bull****.
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Japanac,
Must be 3 times median salary(50% above, 50% below), not average.
I've worked in ATC for 20 years. I won't lose your time talking too much about it : where I work (whatever happened before), since June 2010, rules on paper = roster = actual time worked.
1670 hrs per year - holidays = 1430 hrs, 100 hrs(ish) training.
Took them 12 months (september 2009- september 2010) insulting us in the press, just the way they've been doing in Spain for a year : "Overpaid", "lazy", "irresponsible", "potential mass murderers", false roster exemples, false wages, no means to answer in the press for the unions...
Seize the day ! You could be a splendid target for your national press tomorrow morning. With no advice, no real reason... except a will to lower your T&Cs.
I don't wish it for anyone, not even for my worst enemy.
Good luck !
Do you want to say that 4500euros is not 3 times more than avarage salary in Spain?
Since I am an ATCO myself for 15 years we could talk about working hours and overtime for ages ( rules on paper vs shift roster vs actual time worked)
.
.
I've worked in ATC for 20 years. I won't lose your time talking too much about it : where I work (whatever happened before), since June 2010, rules on paper = roster = actual time worked.
1670 hrs per year - holidays = 1430 hrs, 100 hrs(ish) training.
Took them 12 months (september 2009- september 2010) insulting us in the press, just the way they've been doing in Spain for a year : "Overpaid", "lazy", "irresponsible", "potential mass murderers", false roster exemples, false wages, no means to answer in the press for the unions...
Seize the day ! You could be a splendid target for your national press tomorrow morning. With no advice, no real reason... except a will to lower your T&Cs.
I don't wish it for anyone, not even for my worst enemy.
Good luck !
Last edited by BrATCO; 14th Jan 2011 at 01:29.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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dear colleagues,
Level of misunderstanding here is enormous.
Both me and japanac aren't against atcos. We are atcos ,too. and we shared destiny as any other atco in Europe . All goods and beds.
so there is no sense when we are talking about "possible and future" T&C for expat atcos in Spain to blame us.
we didn't put Spain in current conditions ,nor we're hiring now.
we are just discussing possibilities. Maybe someone will take infos and make acceptable solution for her/him.
So far,answer to my question, "what is the attitude of local atcos to expat atcos " is obvious.
Now, ,salary,and other T&C issues is something that we would like to hear/read. Possible postings, and so on.
best regards,
Level of misunderstanding here is enormous.
Both me and japanac aren't against atcos. We are atcos ,too. and we shared destiny as any other atco in Europe . All goods and beds.
so there is no sense when we are talking about "possible and future" T&C for expat atcos in Spain to blame us.
we didn't put Spain in current conditions ,nor we're hiring now.
we are just discussing possibilities. Maybe someone will take infos and make acceptable solution for her/him.
So far,answer to my question, "what is the attitude of local atcos to expat atcos " is obvious.
Now, ,salary,and other T&C issues is something that we would like to hear/read. Possible postings, and so on.
best regards,
Join Date: May 2003
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"what is the attitude of local atcos to expat atcos "
Personally I wouldn't like expats to come right now, we are having great problems with our ANSP, and if you come you are helping them to continue harrasing us as much as they can. So it is not the best moment, I'm sorry.
When things calm down, and everything it's on his path, where it has to be, there will be no problem, you will be more than welcome.
Coming now is supporting AENA and the Spanish government pressure to us, saying to them "well done" (but oh don't ever do it to me). If you support them what's happening to us it will soon happen to you and I do not wish it at all.
So this is my opinion and I think most of us think the same.
- Salary, monthly, 3000-7000€, depends on posting and years on the job.
- Roster, initially 4 on 2 off (the first off is after a night shift that ends at 8am), but if you are needed your second day off, no problem, you are forced to go (or if not disciplinary measures will fall on you). I'll tell you, in July and August (both together) I only had 4 days off, so if you think this is great....
-Traffic regulations when sectors are overloaded, bufff, we do not now what regulations are now. Not operational staff neither controllers are now in charge of this so just imagine yourself.......
.....
Regards.
Personally I wouldn't like expats to come right now, we are having great problems with our ANSP, and if you come you are helping them to continue harrasing us as much as they can. So it is not the best moment, I'm sorry.
When things calm down, and everything it's on his path, where it has to be, there will be no problem, you will be more than welcome.
Coming now is supporting AENA and the Spanish government pressure to us, saying to them "well done" (but oh don't ever do it to me). If you support them what's happening to us it will soon happen to you and I do not wish it at all.
So this is my opinion and I think most of us think the same.
- Salary, monthly, 3000-7000€, depends on posting and years on the job.
- Roster, initially 4 on 2 off (the first off is after a night shift that ends at 8am), but if you are needed your second day off, no problem, you are forced to go (or if not disciplinary measures will fall on you). I'll tell you, in July and August (both together) I only had 4 days off, so if you think this is great....
-Traffic regulations when sectors are overloaded, bufff, we do not now what regulations are now. Not operational staff neither controllers are now in charge of this so just imagine yourself.......
.....
Regards.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Have you read their last press release?
Dedicated to some of our italian "colleagues".
atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination
Dedicated to some of our italian "colleagues".
atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination
Pegase Driver
Have you read their last press release?
But frankly I would have expected more support from ATCEUC. Tough talk before, but when one of their members is in trouble and asking for help it is a bit more difficult to find a consensus to help them it would seem.
A simple declaration from ATMPP ( federating the 4 Italian Controllers unions ) saying simple :" We support USCA and anyone of our members going to work in Spain will immediately be expelled from our Union" would have cost little and be perhaps a more effective.
