What's My Aircraft Type?

[V1]

Can someone explain why is it that the only ATC unit that asks me for my aircraft type is the Approach Director at my home base in the UK?! …..Which I have generally only left a few hours previously!

By the time I’ve passed: Call sign, Heading, Cleared Level, Speed and ATIS designator I’ve already used up quite enough airtime in the busy London Airspace without then having to remind ATC what my type is as well.

Is this REALLY necessary? Surely this is on the flight plan/strip that you have in front of you, and why is this information only required in the UK?

[eglnyt]

There is an aircraft type on the strip in front of him but until you tell him your aircraft type he has no way of telling whether or not it's correct. You're about to enter a phase of the flight where bad things can hapen if it's wrong.

[paperclip810]

It's procedure for all of the major London airport approach units to verify the aircraft type of those inbound.

Although the strip should reflect any changes made to the flight plan as far as aircraft changes go, the strip can be wrong. Wake turbulence separation must be provided on final approach, so this is the concern of the approach director.

If we have the wrong aircraft type on our strip for any reason, and then vector you straight into some wake turbulence, it's not very safe and you won't be happy!

Hope that helps.

[aerotech07]

And to illustrate the point, for example if an operator uses both ATR42 and 72, or Fokker 70 and 100 they may substitute aircraft for operational reasons and for whatever reason the flight plan never gets the update.

Both those aircraft series span 2 wake turbulence categories, and there are operators who do fly them and do substitute. Its not unknown for the flightplan and strip to be wrong.

[ATC Watcher]

and for whatever reason the flight plan never gets the update.

One is called repetitive FPLs, some filed 6 months in advance.

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by V1

Is this REALLY necessary?

As verification for critical flight safety reasons, yes.
If other countries do not do it then that is their lookout, and maybe their loss.

[aerotech07]

One is called repetitive FPLs, some filed 6 months in advance.

I appreciate that, although most times when equipment is substituted the FPL gets updated, even when it originated as a repetitive plan.

[ex-EGLL]

I appreciate that, although most times when equipment is substituted the FPL gets updated, even when it originated as a repetitive plan.

It's the "non-most" times where the problems occur!

[10 DME ARC]

As all of the above to give you an example just yesterday I had an aircraft check in "XYZ123 a B773 with Xray" the strip said A320!! If I had put a medium three miles behind what I thought was another medium!!!

[DFC]

Here we have a clasic case of trying to brush a problem under the carpet and failing to recognise the wider picture.

How many reports are submitted when the aircraft type on the strip matches the flight plan but does not match the type used for ther operation?

R/T loading is the least of the problems.

What about the flight profile not matching the type and thus the flight receiving a no delay when the actual profile would have picked up a CTOT?

There is one flight plan for every flight. Provided that the aerodrome control unit at the departure point does it's job then we should not have the case of any unit along the route expecting an ATR when the flight is being operated using a FK100.

Operators are required to keep the flight data up to date and that includes filing a CHG or CNL/FPL when the details don't match the RPL.

While I don't see a problem with reporting type on initial contact and agree that it is a safety issue, I would love to hear how many times per day/week/month/year a different type turns up and based on that data what is being done to educate operators and ATS units.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

DFC.. If I had a pound for every time I had a "wrong type" caused by the operator not informing ATC I would be very rich - and I am NOT joking one bit.

How many reports are submitted when the aircraft type on the strip matches the flight plan but does not match the type used for ther operation?

I can't speak for what happens now, but when I was working the ATC system was updated but nothing else.

What about the flight profile not matching the type and thus the flight receiving a no delay when the actual profile would have picked up a CTOT?

Don't know what you mean as the type has little bearing on this, assuming the "right" one and the "wrong" one are of similar performance.

There is one flight plan for every flight. Provided that the aerodrome control unit at the departure point does it's job then we should not have the case of any unit along the route expecting an ATR when the flight is being operated using a FK100.

The aerodrome control unit where I worked did do its job and that is precisely why ATC require pilots to state their aircraft type.

Lastly, you would not believe it but pilots are not beyond giving the wrong type on the R/T. Incredible, but true.

[reportyourlevel]

As for the aerodrome of departure doing it's job, can you tell the difference between an ATR 42-300 (light) and an ATR 42-500 (small), at the other side of the airport in the dark? Thought not.

[DFC]

As for the aerodrome of departure doing it's job, can you tell the difference between an ATR 42-300 (light) and an ATR 42-500 (small), at the other side of the airport in the dark? Thought not.

I think that you will find that all of the ATRs - the 42 versions and the 72 are within the ICAO Medium wake category. Therefore, in terms of wake turbulence there would be no change to the flight plan. Perhaps you could pick a relevant example?

If you get a call from ABC123 for clearance, an A320 on stand 99 with information "A" and you look at your fps and see that the flight is filed as an ATR then you can refuse clearance until the change is reflected in the flight plan - or you can tramsmitt the change message and give the clearance.

Either way, it is the aerodrome of departure that has the best opportunity to pick up the error - day or night.

------

Don't know what you mean as the type has little bearing on this, assuming the "right" one and the "wrong" one are of similar performance.

I wasn't assuming. If the flight plan says B737 and a B777 operates the route then there are a number of performance and other issues.

The CFMU profiles flights and uses lots of data to calculate sector load. With a CTOT based on the slower speed a CTOT can be avoided but travelling faster than predicted on the flight plan can in a few cases result in the flight(s) arriving early in a sector to be part of the reason for an overload. Lots of work has been put into keeping to the filed level, no short-cuts and related issues and this is simply another part of the system that needs to be tightened up.

but when I was working the ATC system was updated but nothing else.

You and I both remember when a "Just to advise you that your company filed the flight as an ATR42" to a B737 pilot would result in some form of a quip and a message to the company about the flight plan. These days it is simply "roger" 'what is he talking about?' 'never mind back to the newspaper'

[GAPSTER]

30 years in TWR/APP.Numerous examples of a/c type changes leading to a wake turbulence change not reflected on my strip.I get it wrong I get in trouble and lots of other people possibly get into worse trouble...can't believe a pilot can not see the point.

Bottom line,if you don't tell me your type I ask...live with it.

[samotnik]

I think that you will find that all of the ATRs - the 42 versions and the 72 are within the ICAO Medium wake category.

But on the islands they have a bit different wake turbulence categories and separations minimas...

[Denti]

It is just one of those little "british" peculiarities that you simply have to live with. The rest of the world can happily lives without it, but that doesn't really matter, if you fly there, follow their rules.

[reportyourlevel]

I think that you will find that all of the ATRs - the 42 versions and the 72 are within the ICAO Medium wake category. Therefore, in terms of wake turbulence there would be no change to the flight plan. Perhaps you could pick a relevant example?

GAPSTER is right and I stand by my example. I'm not checking your flight plan, I'm checking my strip so I can apply the relevant departure or arrival spacing to ensure you don't get flipped upside down by the one in front. If the type is wrong on my strip, I'll get it changed.

The computer works out which UK category the type falls into and prints it on my strip and also inserts the correct ICAO one on the flight plan, which is then sent to the other relevant ATC units. Their computers will do the conversion in reverse if they are in the UK, printing the correct UK category on the strip. The ICAO category contained in the FPL is therefore irrelevant for a UK domestic flight as all of this is picked up from the type field (assuming all the computers work like ours does - not unreasonable). If your arguments are correct, then why do we bother with the type field at all?

[DFC]

I am aware of the local UK wake categories. However, the point being that these are not used on the flight plan and it is only locally that the type is paired with a different wake category.

As a pilot I am very aware of the UK differences - and would not hesitate to file an MOR if I had a wake encounter that was possibly as a result of these local adjustments to the ICAO categories which operate not just on a national basis but in some cases are only applied at specific airports.

Thankfully there is a European Directive landing on the desk of ATS standards that requires the UK ATS Authority to align it's procedures with ICAO as an interm measure prior to the introduction of European ATS Requirements. Let's hope a few of these "local differences" can be weeded out.

However, as I said previously, while I have no problem providing any information requested at any time in the flight, I do feel that it is simply ignoring the bigger picture.

You may not be aware but the crew are required to have a copy of the filed ATS flight plan onboard - and having a copy of the ACK is normal in most companies. Therefore, it says a lot about the B737 PIC that departs on a flight plan for an ATR - what else did they not check on the paperwork?

[ClimbSequence]

I guess the ATC won't bother to ask when a Ryanair flight checks in

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR

pilots are not beyond giving the wrong type on the R/T. Incredible, but true.

Usually the dual rated 757/767 crews who forget what type they are flying. Not unusual to stuff a 757 two and a half behind another 757, transfer to TWR who then phones down to say that the first 757 is, in fact, a 767....