EGTK Radar?
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BAD - There is a lot more airpsace around the area for the VFR's than there was in the early 90's, when Upper Heyford was open and TK was knocking out 1000-1200 movements on a good day.
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bad bear, you seem to be falling into a common trap of saying something that you don't like wouldn't/couldn't possibly have a safety case. I worked for years at an aerodrome providing radar services outside CAS in a busy part of the world, there was gliders and microlight within the CTZ/CTA and military activity of various descriptions pretty much all around. It worked OK, within the limitations of the environment, but made some of the NATS controllers who came on liaison visits go pale. This was in the days pre-safety cases but I would have no difficulty in preparing one for the operations. There is no need to hide behind the regulations - I am quite sure that an adequate safety case could be prepared for a TK radar service.
Sorry for the thread drift.
Sorry for the thread drift.
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Whoa there, hold your aircraft!
I only meant that from personal experience a few of the current ATCOs might not be up for the job of radar.
As for 'Tottytamer', I don't appreciate being dragged in to your poor opinion of the ATCOs and ATCAs at Oxford. If you've got a problem, which you obviously have, take it the official route rather than b****ing on here. There are ways and means of stating your concerns, or haven't you been in the game that long?
I've got nothing agains the ATCAs, having had pleasant experiences when I've spoken to any of them. And as I hear it, one of thems a bit of alright.
I only meant that from personal experience a few of the current ATCOs might not be up for the job of radar.
As for 'Tottytamer', I don't appreciate being dragged in to your poor opinion of the ATCOs and ATCAs at Oxford. If you've got a problem, which you obviously have, take it the official route rather than b****ing on here. There are ways and means of stating your concerns, or haven't you been in the game that long?
I've got nothing agains the ATCAs, having had pleasant experiences when I've spoken to any of them. And as I hear it, one of thems a bit of alright.
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niknak:
How would that work? Nearest NERL radars Debden and Clee Hill, both long-range radars not suitable for LARS work and probably don't have the required low level cover, and certainly no use for SRAs nor probably for vectoring to final approach.
As someone else has said, how could you centralise that function with NATS? Nearest radar is Allanshill, getting on for 100 miles away. Also, were you aware that the HIAL ATE function is contracted to NATS?
NS
Contract it all out to NATS for them to provide a centralised approach from Swanwick
If the Airport owners are looking for a comparison, they should look at Inverness. They were persuaded to employ a non NATS provider for the instillation and launch of their own radar. The provider was perfectly candid about costs and ongoing expenditure but HIAL still went with it as opposed to centralising the APS function
NS
Is it the age old - "well their kit isn't licensed" argument?
Last edited by spekesoftly; 16th Dec 2010 at 07:33.
An approach function from Swanwick would involve Band 5 controllers doing a job normally done by Band 1 or 2 controllers - far too expensive.
From using Debden 23cm on Farnborough LARS North, I would say, contrary to what NorthSouth said, it's an excellent LARS radar - you can see traffic on primary almost to touchdown at Wyton about 25nm away,(much better than Stansted 10cm due to it being sited about 400ft+ amsl) and RAE Bedford used their SSR feed. I never used it to look towards Oxford so I can't say how well it sees there; I used to use the 'new' Heathrow 10cm in this area as it gave better low cover than the Heathrow 23cm.
Brize already have (or had) a procedure where they would vector for Oxford, but as said before, they tend to close radar positions late afternoon; they may well have sufficient room to allocate a console for Oxford using an Oxford controller. Cranfield Radar used to be done from Bedford, and the initial plan for Farnborough under TAG control was for Farnborough Approach to be done from Odiham by Farnborough controllers, (with the RAF taking over the LARS - we actually started training them for this)so there are precedents.
The main problem with using RAF units for civil tasks is security; during certain practice alerts, RAF stations are made impenetrable to outsiders and to get to the tower at Brize, you not only do you need to access the station but you would also need to go 'airside' to cross the airfield.
All things considered, I reckon the most viable option (not necessarily the cheapest) would be a new primary radar at Oxford, with an SSR feed from Heathrow or Clee Hill. Alternatively, get together with Cranfield and find a site for a primary radar convenient to serve both airfields.
From using Debden 23cm on Farnborough LARS North, I would say, contrary to what NorthSouth said, it's an excellent LARS radar - you can see traffic on primary almost to touchdown at Wyton about 25nm away,(much better than Stansted 10cm due to it being sited about 400ft+ amsl) and RAE Bedford used their SSR feed. I never used it to look towards Oxford so I can't say how well it sees there; I used to use the 'new' Heathrow 10cm in this area as it gave better low cover than the Heathrow 23cm.
Brize already have (or had) a procedure where they would vector for Oxford, but as said before, they tend to close radar positions late afternoon; they may well have sufficient room to allocate a console for Oxford using an Oxford controller. Cranfield Radar used to be done from Bedford, and the initial plan for Farnborough under TAG control was for Farnborough Approach to be done from Odiham by Farnborough controllers, (with the RAF taking over the LARS - we actually started training them for this)so there are precedents.
The main problem with using RAF units for civil tasks is security; during certain practice alerts, RAF stations are made impenetrable to outsiders and to get to the tower at Brize, you not only do you need to access the station but you would also need to go 'airside' to cross the airfield.
All things considered, I reckon the most viable option (not necessarily the cheapest) would be a new primary radar at Oxford, with an SSR feed from Heathrow or Clee Hill. Alternatively, get together with Cranfield and find a site for a primary radar convenient to serve both airfields.
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chevvron:
Brilliant idea, if they could find the right site it would save them both millions. I wonder if either of them have thought of it?
NS
get together with Cranfield and find a site for a primary radar convenient to serve both airfields
NS
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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A pilot here.
I'm TK based and have the utmost respect for all the controllers. I would suggest that the person who claimed some of their controllers aren't up to the job should go there on a busy day and marvel at what they achieve. The major problems in the area are visiting crews who don't understand what they are doing and downright fools who fly through the approach without talking to either TK or Brize. I find it a tad frustrating having to go round due to a TCAS RA when established and finding that the other pilot is just ignoring where he is and simply can'y be bothered telling anyone what he is up to.
I have had far worse services at much bigger airports in the UK, a list of the poor to down right bloody incompetent would probably not be welcome here, but it is a subject heavily discussed by pilots in the places we meet.
How about controlled airspace as well. Then life would be a lot easier.
P.S. Fred; At least the uniform goes with your eyes!!
I'm TK based and have the utmost respect for all the controllers. I would suggest that the person who claimed some of their controllers aren't up to the job should go there on a busy day and marvel at what they achieve. The major problems in the area are visiting crews who don't understand what they are doing and downright fools who fly through the approach without talking to either TK or Brize. I find it a tad frustrating having to go round due to a TCAS RA when established and finding that the other pilot is just ignoring where he is and simply can'y be bothered telling anyone what he is up to.
I have had far worse services at much bigger airports in the UK, a list of the poor to down right bloody incompetent would probably not be welcome here, but it is a subject heavily discussed by pilots in the places we meet.
How about controlled airspace as well. Then life would be a lot easier.
P.S. Fred; At least the uniform goes with your eyes!!
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verticalhold..... Sounds like it ever was. I was in ATC Oxford in 1971. A number of the more senior instructors were very much against radar as they felt that it would be restrictive, yet when things were downright grim they would gaily do QGHs!! It was very scary running a hold in IMC with half a dozen twins and some charlie would call "... just coming up to your overhead at FL55, any traffic?" Aarrgghh.
Controlled Airspace is for sensible pilots and controllers but the clockwork mice brigade have a very strong lobby....
Keep taking the tablets.
Controlled Airspace is for sensible pilots and controllers but the clockwork mice brigade have a very strong lobby....
Keep taking the tablets.
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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HD
I have a clockwork mouse too. Sadly some of my aquaintences from that world have no idea of the problems they cause on occasion.
VH
I have a clockwork mouse too. Sadly some of my aquaintences from that world have no idea of the problems they cause on occasion.
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I'm not sure just installing a radar is the solution. There are many of us who operate in the area and recognise the complexity and intensity. Not only are there a large number of wide-ranging activities (gliding, parachuting, GA, RAF etc etc) but the interaction is quite complex. Dropping-in a radar without significant planning, airspace redesign(?) and consultation may create more problems than it solves. I would suggest that there is a need to clearly define (simplify?) responsibilities otherwise there would be at least 3 radar units (Brize, Benson, Oxford) providing ATSOCAS in the same crowded bit of sky.
Maybe there are some lessons to be learnt from the Farnborough LARS development.
Maybe there are some lessons to be learnt from the Farnborough LARS development.
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Benson; not open much at the moment and likely to be less so in the future.
Brize; LARS hours much less than TK opening and they don't want to provide a service to IFR traffic at TK.
Farnborough; Doesn't reach that far.
The people at TK are not fools and wil look at every option on merit. Radar the sooner the better for the operators.
TK
Brize; LARS hours much less than TK opening and they don't want to provide a service to IFR traffic at TK.
Farnborough; Doesn't reach that far.
The people at TK are not fools and wil look at every option on merit. Radar the sooner the better for the operators.
TK
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"When I was trained as a controller I was told that if I did not know the answer to a question I must know where to find the answer"
Heathrow Director, was it East the Beast who gave you this philospohphical tip? And if so did the answer lie in the back of his little camper van?
Heathrow Director, was it East the Beast who gave you this philospohphical tip? And if so did the answer lie in the back of his little camper van?
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I am a TC Controller. I hate TK joiners and leavers at CPT. There are no procedures that really work and an aircraft calling for join or leaving CAS are an incident waiting to happen. I have seen loads of these near incidents and TC is just too busy to provide a radar service outside CAS.
Somebody has spent a lot of money in providing facilities at TK, they should have spent money so that those operators were safe joining and leaving CAS .
I think there should be one unit only proving a radar service in this area and it should be either VN or LF LARS
Somebody has spent a lot of money in providing facilities at TK, they should have spent money so that those operators were safe joining and leaving CAS .
I think there should be one unit only proving a radar service in this area and it should be either VN or LF LARS
niknak
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Lets get some facts straight shall we?
The owners of Oxford cannot justify the costs of an approach radar service by installing their own radar, based upon present commercial income at the airport, unless they want to do so from their own resources. We are talking of an investment of £1m plus just to get it installed and flight checked, then you've got ongoing costs of ATCOs and engineers. Anyone who questions costs of less than £800k for a 0600 -2000 operation has no idea of the real world.
There is some justification for providing a joint approach radar service for Oxford/Cranfield by one unit, but where is the funding for this going to come from?
LARS? Oh dear! you've got to have the ability to provide the basic services before you even get this far!
Radar at Oxford is a laudable idea, but it's got to be commercially viable.
The only way a long term plan would work is biting the bullet and contracting out to NATS, the current "Odd Job" way of doing things there is simply not a viable idea.
The owners of Oxford cannot justify the costs of an approach radar service by installing their own radar, based upon present commercial income at the airport, unless they want to do so from their own resources. We are talking of an investment of £1m plus just to get it installed and flight checked, then you've got ongoing costs of ATCOs and engineers. Anyone who questions costs of less than £800k for a 0600 -2000 operation has no idea of the real world.
There is some justification for providing a joint approach radar service for Oxford/Cranfield by one unit, but where is the funding for this going to come from?
LARS? Oh dear! you've got to have the ability to provide the basic services before you even get this far!
Radar at Oxford is a laudable idea, but it's got to be commercially viable.
The only way a long term plan would work is biting the bullet and contracting out to NATS, the current "Odd Job" way of doing things there is simply not a viable idea.