SNOCLO
Join Date: Dec 2000
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When BA did decide to cancel their program until Saturday 1700, LHR was indeed still open at the time. BA based their decision on a forecast, rather than what was actually happening. It was a sensible decision and one that I am sure prevented many more travellers sitting in T5 and going no where tonight.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Information for all, EGKK has ordered 3 new snow ploughs!!!! Unfortunately they are stuck in France due to the bad weather, they will be here in time for the heavy snow forecast in JULY!!!!
Apart from my last sarcastic comment the above is true, you just have to laugh!!!
Apart from my last sarcastic comment the above is true, you just have to laugh!!!
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Here's a quote from the BBC News: "There was no more than two inches of snow and yet the runway is totally covered. Why aren't they ploughing it, why aren't they gritting it, why aren't they salting it?"
Incredible, eh? Just shows the extreme ignorance of Joe Public on such matters.
Incredible, eh? Just shows the extreme ignorance of Joe Public on such matters.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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HD, I guess if they are caught up in it it must be incredibly frustrating.
The airport would open if it could - the northern runway is clear but its dangerous ice on the aprons that is keeping it closed today. Dont expect the media to be asking fair & reasoned questions of the stranded punters!
The airport would open if it could - the northern runway is clear but its dangerous ice on the aprons that is keeping it closed today. Dont expect the media to be asking fair & reasoned questions of the stranded punters!
Join Date: Oct 2000
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B-L.. Agreed, but it might help if BAA explained all this in simple terms to the poor devils sleeping in the terminals. From what passengers have said on the media, they are getting virtually no information which is appalling.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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My son is stuck there, he says the place looks like a refugee camp.
He's astounded that a lousy 4 inches of snow brought that place to it's knees. I have to agree with him!
He's astounded that a lousy 4 inches of snow brought that place to it's knees. I have to agree with him!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Changer,
I can understand the frustration, but it is not just a 'lousy 4 inches of snow' that have closed down the operation and if people look further afield it is not just the UK that is affected.
Germany is having problems and they have a colder winter climate than the UK, so why are they struggling? Surely they should be even better prepared than us bearing in mind their generally worse winters.
Agreed that BAA are not exactly on the ball, and that information could be better, but there are genuine reasons why EGLL are struggling.
I can understand the frustration, but it is not just a 'lousy 4 inches of snow' that have closed down the operation and if people look further afield it is not just the UK that is affected.
Germany is having problems and they have a colder winter climate than the UK, so why are they struggling? Surely they should be even better prepared than us bearing in mind their generally worse winters.
Agreed that BAA are not exactly on the ball, and that information could be better, but there are genuine reasons why EGLL are struggling.
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Yes but other many airports are coping fine with just as much snow, if not more.
Stockholm airport clears snow and reopens within 6-10 minutes.
If Heathrow wants to be one of the leading airports in the world it needs to do a much better job.
There is no excuse for a plane to land and then passengers be stuck on it for 5 hours like the virgin plane from the U.S. yesterday as BAA couldn't clear a stand for it - no wonder the americans view it as a third world airport.
Stockholm airport clears snow and reopens within 6-10 minutes.
If Heathrow wants to be one of the leading airports in the world it needs to do a much better job.
There is no excuse for a plane to land and then passengers be stuck on it for 5 hours like the virgin plane from the U.S. yesterday as BAA couldn't clear a stand for it - no wonder the americans view it as a third world airport.
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Stockholm experiences a hell of a lot more snow and ice than Heathrow or any airport in the UK. They can justify the expenditure on extra equipment etc.
Just how do you propose that Heathrow clears runways and all the stands, especially when as soon as it ploughs the snow, more falls and it also freezes?
Airport snow and ice clearance is not as straightforward as it is for roads.
De-icing of airfield surfaces takes time and lasts for only a certain period before needing to be done again... it is a continous cycle until the weather improves.
We also always hear about Heathrow and Gatwick... EGLL, one of the busiest airports in the World, and Gatwick the busiest single runway airport in the World. Obviously because of these facts, any disruption is going to hit harder (not that that is any consolation for the passengers). There were plenty of other airports in the UK that were closed yesterday and are today, but other than a passing one-liner, you don't hear of them unless you are local.
Heathrow is an extremely busy airport that struggles daily with the number of stands available, it is a very tightly run operation in that regard and usually works under normal operations using very nimble and precise timings. BA took the decision to cancel flights early. This means that aircraft that should have vacated stands didn't, exacerbating the problem.
As for the Virgin aircraft - there were plenty of instances yesterday when crews were told they could land at various UK airports, but that they would not get a stand for some time, and may even have to park on a taxy-way. The Virgin crew might have been in this situation - in these circumstances it is the companys' decision whether to land and have the aircraft in the correct place for the next flight, accepting the delay on the gorund, or to divert and not know when the aircraft will get to re-position to EGLL (in this instance), for the next flight.
Snow closures always hit the headlines, yet UK airports suffer delays/closures from fog more often... never seems to hit the headlines in the same way though. Bearing in mind this fact, why don't airport authorities spend more money on fog dispersal initiatives? (Obviously there aren't any, but the argument is as valid as the one about airports buying the multitude of extra vehicles to keep them open in snow).
Snow will always cause disruption, yesterday was supposed to be the busiest day of the season. A lot of fights would still have been cancelled - at what point do you think it is financially viable to have a cut-off? It's all very well saying that at least some people would have got their flights... until you are one of the ones whose flight is cancelled during reduced operations.
Whatever happens, there are always going to be people unhappy. It is a lose-lose situation
Just how do you propose that Heathrow clears runways and all the stands, especially when as soon as it ploughs the snow, more falls and it also freezes?
Airport snow and ice clearance is not as straightforward as it is for roads.
De-icing of airfield surfaces takes time and lasts for only a certain period before needing to be done again... it is a continous cycle until the weather improves.
We also always hear about Heathrow and Gatwick... EGLL, one of the busiest airports in the World, and Gatwick the busiest single runway airport in the World. Obviously because of these facts, any disruption is going to hit harder (not that that is any consolation for the passengers). There were plenty of other airports in the UK that were closed yesterday and are today, but other than a passing one-liner, you don't hear of them unless you are local.
There is no excuse for a plane to land and then passengers be stuck on it for 5 hours like the virgin plane from the U.S
As for the Virgin aircraft - there were plenty of instances yesterday when crews were told they could land at various UK airports, but that they would not get a stand for some time, and may even have to park on a taxy-way. The Virgin crew might have been in this situation - in these circumstances it is the companys' decision whether to land and have the aircraft in the correct place for the next flight, accepting the delay on the gorund, or to divert and not know when the aircraft will get to re-position to EGLL (in this instance), for the next flight.
Snow closures always hit the headlines, yet UK airports suffer delays/closures from fog more often... never seems to hit the headlines in the same way though. Bearing in mind this fact, why don't airport authorities spend more money on fog dispersal initiatives? (Obviously there aren't any, but the argument is as valid as the one about airports buying the multitude of extra vehicles to keep them open in snow).
Snow will always cause disruption, yesterday was supposed to be the busiest day of the season. A lot of fights would still have been cancelled - at what point do you think it is financially viable to have a cut-off? It's all very well saying that at least some people would have got their flights... until you are one of the ones whose flight is cancelled during reduced operations.
Whatever happens, there are always going to be people unhappy. It is a lose-lose situation
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Oh please. I hear nothing but excuses. Obviously there's not enough equipment and apparently no snow plan at LHR.
OK so you don't get the winters that ORD, JFK, BOS might see, but even ATL can deal with a few inches of snow without shutting down.
from Heathrow's website... "the change in temperature overnight led to a significant build up of ice on parking stands around the planes and this requires the airfield to remain closed until it is safe to move planes around."
Ice on the ramps is no excuse. Chemically treated ramps and taxiways lowers the freezing temp of the precip so it can be easily cleared. It's how it's done in the States.
OK so you don't get the winters that ORD, JFK, BOS might see, but even ATL can deal with a few inches of snow without shutting down.
from Heathrow's website... "the change in temperature overnight led to a significant build up of ice on parking stands around the planes and this requires the airfield to remain closed until it is safe to move planes around."
Ice on the ramps is no excuse. Chemically treated ramps and taxiways lowers the freezing temp of the precip so it can be easily cleared. It's how it's done in the States.
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So why is it we see every winter news from the states " east coast hit by snowstorms, thousands of passengers stranded " if they are so wonderful at snow clearance. Yet another example of US selective memory.
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We're talking about a couple inches of snow here. Not a couple feet of snow.
Name one occasion where a couple inches of snow stranded thousands of passengers at any major US airport.
Name one occasion where a couple inches of snow stranded thousands of passengers at any major US airport.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Changer... My wife and I flew from O'Hare to St Louis once. Taxying out we were told there was a "one hour ground stop due to thunderstorms"!!!!!!! We duly sat there for an hour... OK, you people might be good with snow but we beat the pants off you with thunderstorms
Join Date: Jul 1999
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How to do it.
http://www.airtap.umn.edu/Publicatio...IceControl.pdf
Snow plans. Snow and ice should be removed as soon as possible during or after a weather event. To facilitate this, every airport should have a current “snow plan” that describes in detail snow and ice control and removal operations. A snow plan should be concise, accurate, practical, and specific to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)/Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) circular under which an airport operates. A snow plan is required for all FAR 139 certificated airports, and it must be submitted to the FAA for approval. FAA Advisory Circular 150/5200 provides a guide for creating a snow plan and suggests a list of items to include.
.......... the snow removal plan at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport(MSP) requires runways to be cleared within 30 minutes of closing.
.......... the snow removal plan at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport(MSP) requires runways to be cleared within 30 minutes of closing.
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to 10W
Speaking as an Atco; Yes we are closed, meaning poor braking action etc and yellow things on the runway.
BAA says we are open, meaning the duty free/tax free shops are open and making a mint from trapped SLF.
Simples !!!
Dave
BAA says we are open, meaning the duty free/tax free shops are open and making a mint from trapped SLF.
Simples !!!
Dave
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Which is all very well for airports in the North of the USA, or indeed anywhere that regularly has winter snowfall.
For the rest of the world where it is warmer and snowfall is a much rarer event, as has been stated, there is little motivation (or need?) to invest in expensive equipment that will spend most of it's life idle.
This applies equally to the southernUSA, where a "few inches" of snow managed to cause chaos.... just like here in the balmy UK.
Airlines Cancel Flights as Winter Storm Hits South - ABC News
BEX.
P.S. Apart from Ash Clouds, I can't remember EGLL being shut for such an extended period. When was the last "all day" closure. Anyone? Bren?
For the rest of the world where it is warmer and snowfall is a much rarer event, as has been stated, there is little motivation (or need?) to invest in expensive equipment that will spend most of it's life idle.
This applies equally to the southernUSA, where a "few inches" of snow managed to cause chaos.... just like here in the balmy UK.
Airlines Cancel Flights as Winter Storm Hits South - ABC News
BEX.
P.S. Apart from Ash Clouds, I can't remember EGLL being shut for such an extended period. When was the last "all day" closure. Anyone? Bren?
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Forget,
London Heathrow
Ave. High (Degrees C): Nov 10.9, Dec 8.8, Jan 7.9, Feb 8.2
Ave. Low: Nov 4.8, Dec 3.3, Jan 2.4, Feb 2.2
Average number of days per year where snowfall > 0.1in: 4 (seems high to me, apart from the last two years).
Minneapolis-St. Paul
Ave. High (Degrees C): Nov 4.5, Dec -3.1, Jan -5.6, Feb -2
Ave. Low: Nov -4, Dec -11.7, Jan -15.4, Feb -11.2
Average number of days per year where snowfall > 0.1in: 40
Slight difference in climate and risk exposure there.
London Heathrow
Ave. High (Degrees C): Nov 10.9, Dec 8.8, Jan 7.9, Feb 8.2
Ave. Low: Nov 4.8, Dec 3.3, Jan 2.4, Feb 2.2
Average number of days per year where snowfall > 0.1in: 4 (seems high to me, apart from the last two years).
Minneapolis-St. Paul
Ave. High (Degrees C): Nov 4.5, Dec -3.1, Jan -5.6, Feb -2
Ave. Low: Nov -4, Dec -11.7, Jan -15.4, Feb -11.2
Average number of days per year where snowfall > 0.1in: 40
Slight difference in climate and risk exposure there.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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BEX.. Not in all the years I was involved with the place. I recall a handful or less days when snow was bad enough for us to worry if the oncoming watch would arrive...... but the aircraft were still flying! I think you'd have to go back to the days in the 60s of smog and prior to autoland...