Dubai Approach, what is going on?
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Dubai Approach, what is going on?
A friend in Abu Dhabi and some pilots I know told me that Dubai is having problems with their "too much" vectoring?
Are they short of ATCOs?
Are they short of ATCOs?
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Maybe they need an over 60?
Oh no, on second thoughts been there done that already.
As I was told many years ago, "Remember lad, speed control is no substitute for good vectoring". Yeah, right!!!!
Oh no, on second thoughts been there done that already.
As I was told many years ago, "Remember lad, speed control is no substitute for good vectoring". Yeah, right!!!!
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The entire airspace and route structure in the UAE needs a total re-work. 
I think it is only going to get worse when Al Maktoum airport tries to live up to expectations.
I think it is only going to get worse when Al Maktoum airport tries to live up to expectations.
As a loanee to a local airline (737-800 -guess) my experiences of Dubai ATC is generally disappointing.Coming from the UK where we don't get much right these days -ATC being an honourable exception -my experiences at the hands of the local controllers has not been comparable.
To the Dubai approach controller who berated us last Saturday may I inform you of the following.A long day for us,this was the fourth sector.The second inbound to DXB involved a go -around due debris on the runway.The subsequent go -around uneventful except for seemingly random heading and speed changes culminating in an arrival 20 mins later.The fourth sector on return from Kuwait involved 45 mins holding @ Desdi.The term EAT is misleading as Desdi is a long way from touchdown.Due to local experience I persuaded the new captain that I was training to carry extra fuel and this proved to be beneficial as we neared Dubai.However when we eventually left the hold we then experienced some more haphazard vectoring plus cleared for the approach.The instruction given from approximately 14 miles was 180 to 10 plus 160 to 4 -standard stuff.It then became apparent that we were closing to 3 miles behind an exec jet- himself 6 miles behind a heavy.
There was no alternative but to slow down ourselves for reasons I will explain.My co-captain from the sub -continent was not a native English speaker plus unfamiliar with local procedure -I was the handling pilot btw.The approach controller then told us that we should inform him before we slow down and despite the volume of traffic felt compelled to add that 'you are not the only aircraft in the sky' plus some sarcastic remark referenced to 'doing his job'.What I could have said is that if we hadn't slowed down we would have gone around for the second time -1 hour 30 into discretion and that the next call would be 'mayday' due low fuel.My advice:do not use non -standard and conversational language over an ATC frequency.While I appreciate the workload at DXB is significant at times we also have issues and challenges courtesy of what passes for a system.I was going to put in an ASR but really couldn't be bothered as we had already submitted one from the earlier go -around (plus discretion and training reports).I obtained the DXB ATC standards officer tel number from our safety dept but no reply so far.Be professional guys despite the stressors.
To the Dubai approach controller who berated us last Saturday may I inform you of the following.A long day for us,this was the fourth sector.The second inbound to DXB involved a go -around due debris on the runway.The subsequent go -around uneventful except for seemingly random heading and speed changes culminating in an arrival 20 mins later.The fourth sector on return from Kuwait involved 45 mins holding @ Desdi.The term EAT is misleading as Desdi is a long way from touchdown.Due to local experience I persuaded the new captain that I was training to carry extra fuel and this proved to be beneficial as we neared Dubai.However when we eventually left the hold we then experienced some more haphazard vectoring plus cleared for the approach.The instruction given from approximately 14 miles was 180 to 10 plus 160 to 4 -standard stuff.It then became apparent that we were closing to 3 miles behind an exec jet- himself 6 miles behind a heavy.
There was no alternative but to slow down ourselves for reasons I will explain.My co-captain from the sub -continent was not a native English speaker plus unfamiliar with local procedure -I was the handling pilot btw.The approach controller then told us that we should inform him before we slow down and despite the volume of traffic felt compelled to add that 'you are not the only aircraft in the sky' plus some sarcastic remark referenced to 'doing his job'.What I could have said is that if we hadn't slowed down we would have gone around for the second time -1 hour 30 into discretion and that the next call would be 'mayday' due low fuel.My advice:do not use non -standard and conversational language over an ATC frequency.While I appreciate the workload at DXB is significant at times we also have issues and challenges courtesy of what passes for a system.I was going to put in an ASR but really couldn't be bothered as we had already submitted one from the earlier go -around (plus discretion and training reports).I obtained the DXB ATC standards officer tel number from our safety dept but no reply so far.Be professional guys despite the stressors.
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There was no alternative but to slow down ourselves for reasons I will explain.
At the same time, I do concede that putting you a bare 3 miles behind the preceding traffic AFTER having gone around was probably not the best way of handling things!
Last edited by Guy D'ageradar; 12th Nov 2010 at 17:50.
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Dubai APP does a good job given the constraints/diktats/orders imposed on them by the GCAA in the manifestation of the "Gruesome twosome" aka the pot bellied Danish cartoon character and his muppet, the DANS.
The procedures for release inbound via DESDI were devised by these two and under their rule Dubai has little autonomy.
It may be worth a missive to the GCAA Regulatory dept.
Cheers
Dubai APP does a good job given the constraints/diktats/orders imposed on them by the GCAA in the manifestation of the "Gruesome twosome" aka the pot bellied Danish cartoon character and his muppet, the DANS.
The procedures for release inbound via DESDI were devised by these two and under their rule Dubai has little autonomy.
It may be worth a missive to the GCAA Regulatory dept.
Cheers
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Rule 3 - Yes they do, but only when the arrivals man feels like taking it easy.
'Whaddya mean, tight, I had room to squeeze one off there; it was a bigger gap than management credibility'.
'Whaddya mean, tight, I had room to squeeze one off there; it was a bigger gap than management credibility'.
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I`ll try not to bore you but let me briefly give you some reasons why the arrival spacing at Dubai appears to be so much more than at places like LHR.
Dubai`s two rwy`s are too close together to be operated independantly, departures must be rolling in the gap between an inbound touching down and the next one reaching two miles final. Hence the standard minimum gap irespective of wake minima is set at 5 miles although occasinally at peak periods we work down to vortex minima.
The 5 miles is measured when the first inbound is at 4nm final hence the second at 9 miles. This gap naturally decreases as the first reduces below 160kt and doesn`t really leave much of a departure window for the other rwy. We are not permitted to use "Land After" procedures or reduced rwy separations at night and in several other cases including when the tailwind component exceeds 5knts at any time of day. Any smaller gap between inbounds will cause delays to outbounds so it has to be balanced according to the inbound or outbound flow.
These factors themselves are fairly restrictive but add into that aircraft with the same exit gate having to be streamed 10nm in trail for all gates and the amount of flow control at night through some gates and it is pretty easy to see how delays can build up both on arrival and departure.
Anyone who has been through DXB at peak periods will be pretty aware of the traffic level and whilst we are not working to the flow capacity of other major airports in movements/hour we are working to the limits of what we are allowed to do without being removed from duty.
Any Dubai based drivers that want to see the world from our side of the fence will be very welcome to come for a visit.
Dubai`s two rwy`s are too close together to be operated independantly, departures must be rolling in the gap between an inbound touching down and the next one reaching two miles final. Hence the standard minimum gap irespective of wake minima is set at 5 miles although occasinally at peak periods we work down to vortex minima.
The 5 miles is measured when the first inbound is at 4nm final hence the second at 9 miles. This gap naturally decreases as the first reduces below 160kt and doesn`t really leave much of a departure window for the other rwy. We are not permitted to use "Land After" procedures or reduced rwy separations at night and in several other cases including when the tailwind component exceeds 5knts at any time of day. Any smaller gap between inbounds will cause delays to outbounds so it has to be balanced according to the inbound or outbound flow.
These factors themselves are fairly restrictive but add into that aircraft with the same exit gate having to be streamed 10nm in trail for all gates and the amount of flow control at night through some gates and it is pretty easy to see how delays can build up both on arrival and departure.
Anyone who has been through DXB at peak periods will be pretty aware of the traffic level and whilst we are not working to the flow capacity of other major airports in movements/hour we are working to the limits of what we are allowed to do without being removed from duty.
Any Dubai based drivers that want to see the world from our side of the fence will be very welcome to come for a visit.
Heathrow Director
We've just got in from our new local in rural Herefordshire, having had a lovely pint of real warm beer with fish and chips, and this local at the bar said his daughter is an ATCO at Dubai, apparently ex LL, but Dad was a bit confused about the difference between Twr and Radar.Obviously not the Hanbury off-spring! Her name is C*****e.
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Don't they land 2.5nm apart at Heathrow.
Maybe if you had advised no longer able to comply with the aforementioned speed restrictions (which, I assume, you had read back and thus accepted), there would have been no excuse for any "sarcastic remark" and the whole situation would have been avoided! Then again, I guess it doesn't bother you that the following traffic has to go around due to your non-compliance with an atc clearance.
A friend in Abu Dhabi and some pilots I know told me that Dubai is having problems with their "too much" vectoring?
Are they short of ATCOs?
Are they short of ATCOs?
Dubai APP does a good job given the constraints/diktats/orders imposed on them by the GCAA in the manifestation of the "Gruesome twosome" aka the pot bellied Danish cartoon character and his muppet, the DANS.
Dubai`s two rwy`s are too close together to be operated independantly,
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Dubai`s two rwy`s are too close together to be operated independantly,
....not true. Have a look at some of the ops in the US. Quite impressive!
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Maybe I should have been more specific by saying that because of the proximity of the runways the rules are that we have to operate them independently, although I would imagine most readers had already worked that out all by themselves. Because of this and the other restrictions we just cannot legally run it any tighter at present no matter how much we want to.
I`m sure Aeroflop follows the rules that apply at the ACC which strangle the outbound traffic flow from Dubai but we are fully aware that those restrictions are not caused by the ACC controllers.
Short of good Controllers? I don`t think so but please feel free to come and show us how its done A.
I`m sure Aeroflop follows the rules that apply at the ACC which strangle the outbound traffic flow from Dubai but we are fully aware that those restrictions are not caused by the ACC controllers.
Short of good Controllers? I don`t think so but please feel free to come and show us how its done A.
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We've just got in from our new local in rural Herefordshire, having had a lovely pint of real warm beer with fish and chips, and this local at the bar said his daughter is an ATCO at Dubai, apparently ex LL, but Dad was a bit confused about the difference between Twr and Radar.Obviously not the Hanbury off-spring! Her name is C*****e.
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Because of this and the other restrictions we just cannot legally run it any tighter at present no matter how much we want to.