Q? French Government collusion with French ATC strike?
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Again and again, and within the framework of the declared war of our governments and EU against all the European collective community of ATCOs :
Just let us create finally our own European private company of ANSP...
That becomes urgent, folks...
Just let us create finally our own European private company of ANSP...
That becomes urgent, folks...
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Again and again, and within the framework of the declared war of our governments and EU against all the European collective community of ATCOs :
Just let us create finally our own European private company of ANSP...
That becomes urgent, folks...
Just let us create finally our own European private company of ANSP...
That becomes urgent, folks...
MOSAIC (www.project-mosaic.eu) could also be the answer. What is really clear is that we must ALL fight together
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To remove state soverignty overspace would open up a pandoras box.
Just to clarify one point.
As one can see from the ICAO Convention a country's soverign airspace lies above it's soverign territory.
As far as I am aware French Territory (just like UK Territory) extends to 12nm from the shoreline.
T9 is not in French Soverign Airspace. It is over International Waters and thus is international airspace.
France has by agreement been charged with providing ATS in certain FIR's through which T9 passes. Part of this is that they establish danger Areas to segregate OAT Training, firing etc from GAT. However, these missile exercises are taking place over the high seas and as such are outside the territory of any nation.
The problem is how do you operate in controlled airsspace and through an active danger area even if it is over international waters without endangering.
If the French really thought about it they could have established some firing UNL/SFC out under T14 and T16 as well and had airspace in Shanwick closed off also!!
Now that would cause some "good moaning Pierre" 
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Originally Posted by aldegar
MOSAIC (MOSAIC) could also be the answer. What is really clear is that we must ALL fight together
No, MOSAIC is not the right answer...
...Creating our own private ANSP ruled by the whole European collective community of ATCOs is the real final answer...
No other ways... Following MOSAIC or what else OFF-ROADS...
Methinks...
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AF jockey,
"Clairances" are dead and buried. They rest in peace.
Let's move on.
Keynes (was he a dangerous international Marxist ?) in his theories on macro-economy said (among other things) that governments should invest in infrastructures (roads, energy, communications, public services,...) and ensure that their prices remain low because, for any investment, the return would be higher. Indeed, governments must raise taxes to invest, but companies still earn more money by being able to rely on healthy infrastructures which are comparatively less expensive. According to Keynes, everybody wins in keeping public services cheap and effective.
Look at your electricity bill, and gas, and fuel, and highways, and telephone, etc ... since they were privatized.
You'll answer that your phone bill is cheaper now.
For you, no doubt. But whichever your provider, the hotline is abroad. So that's one job less within France, so you pay more taxes for the French unemployed. Besides, your phone provider pays its taxes abroad, not in France. So your French employer who pays his taxes in France must pay more to compensate.
No, your employer will not pay more because taxes must stay low.
So we have an unemployed in France who does not manufacture anything, he's costly to society, forcing the debt of France to increase. It is cheaper for you because your children will pay the bill ... Will it be less expensive than when we had nationalised providers?
We could reduce welfare, but still according to Keynes and his income/consumption rate, that's a bad idea.
Currently, taxes for French ATC are cheaper than those of our FABEC partners. We are a public service, others are not ... We are cheaper, they are not... Does it make your mind ?
Ok, we can reduce staffing. Why not ?
German controllers are already half as much as we are, their taxes are more expensive. Same in Switzerland, same in Maastricht, same in the UK, same in Spain ...(you all, don't take it too badly !)
French ATC already deals with 28% of the traffic with only 24% of the staff in the FABEC (source: Eurocontrol). You call us inefficient and expensive ? Why not, you must be right...
Anyway, we can not remove half the French staff...
So French ATC will become more expensive than the others. Is it good for you in the competition between LH, BA and AF ?
Or, as taxes will be harmonized in FABEC, will other European controllers have to earn as little as we do in order to lower their taxes at our level ? How will they accept that ?
Or will shareholders have to forget about their profits to enable private companies to thrive? (As we did after the ash cloud by offering the service, while we were already in problems.)
Still not sure...
Our boss has told journalists that he does not understand why we are angry because everything we risk is to earn more money.
My feeling is that money is becoming less of a problem now. As civil-servants, we can not earn more, which is not necessarily bad, given what I just wrote. Clearances were tolerated for 40 years to partially offset the wage differential with other European controllers. As time is money, let's imagine that they accounted for 10 or 20 per cent (or even 30 if you wish) increase in our salaries, we were still far from the others. They no longer exist, so another (cheaper ?) solution has to be found...
Meanwhile, we are insulted in the press. I've read "lazy", "overpaid", "irresponsible", "unprofessional" in papers. Were they talking about me ?(I read those words on this forum too, but i don't mind : here, they are just "rumours")
Undoubtedly the aim is to destabilize controllers... Funny concept: "destabilizing controllers". As pilots, controllers are trained to resist the pressure. In the most difficult moments they will never give up. That's their job.
That must be why you see a connection with the pilots' strikes in the 90's.
By the way, will you stay as calm when the number of pilots will decrease from 2 to 1, then 0 ?
I hope not. And you'll have my total support. Nothing personal, it's just a question of safety ... thus macro-economy ...
From my point of view (according to Keynes ?), ATC (ie : infrastructure) should not have become an industry, it should have remained a service. Aviation needs money (a lot !), but earning money with it is bad .
ATC, fuel, airport taxes should decrease. Even my salary could decrease (a little !) if necessary, while remaining compatible with my responsibilities. Serving my country, Europe and the World's economy is important to me, as much a my wages. But I think I deserve a little more respect than what I'm being provided right now.
Respect seems to me the key.
Say "please" and "thank you" could do better than insults or threats. Maybe even better that increase our salaries (Hey, Hey ! That would have been a cheap solution !).
Anyway, I have no idea how this will end up, but I think it will be more expensive in the long term.
Flying in France, you have benefitted a cheap ATC in france since the beginning. This is nearly over. You wished it, you'll get it soon.
Hence my expression : "Good luck, anyway". Your company will cost me a lot again, whichever the way I pay.
[edit] :
The best way to avoid the inconvenience of a strike is and will always be to remove the reasons for the strike.
[end edit]
If I followed the situation, the CTOTs are very hard in the morning, then get better and here we go again in the evening.
This is a garbling between the strike call, the "minimum service" law for transports, the French constitution, our rosters, and (maybe) the lack of trust between management and controllers (both ways).
We're working on that.
We are civil servants, our job is to provide a service for everyone's good.
Just let us do.
Is my story long enough this time ?
Hard to explain why French government fired a missile test Saturday afternoon...
"Clairances" are dead and buried. They rest in peace.
Let's move on.
I can't see how the new system will cost dreadfully more than today
Look at your electricity bill, and gas, and fuel, and highways, and telephone, etc ... since they were privatized.
You'll answer that your phone bill is cheaper now.
For you, no doubt. But whichever your provider, the hotline is abroad. So that's one job less within France, so you pay more taxes for the French unemployed. Besides, your phone provider pays its taxes abroad, not in France. So your French employer who pays his taxes in France must pay more to compensate.
No, your employer will not pay more because taxes must stay low.
So we have an unemployed in France who does not manufacture anything, he's costly to society, forcing the debt of France to increase. It is cheaper for you because your children will pay the bill ... Will it be less expensive than when we had nationalised providers?
We could reduce welfare, but still according to Keynes and his income/consumption rate, that's a bad idea.
Currently, taxes for French ATC are cheaper than those of our FABEC partners. We are a public service, others are not ... We are cheaper, they are not... Does it make your mind ?
Ok, we can reduce staffing. Why not ?
German controllers are already half as much as we are, their taxes are more expensive. Same in Switzerland, same in Maastricht, same in the UK, same in Spain ...(you all, don't take it too badly !)
French ATC already deals with 28% of the traffic with only 24% of the staff in the FABEC (source: Eurocontrol). You call us inefficient and expensive ? Why not, you must be right...
Anyway, we can not remove half the French staff...
So French ATC will become more expensive than the others. Is it good for you in the competition between LH, BA and AF ?
Or, as taxes will be harmonized in FABEC, will other European controllers have to earn as little as we do in order to lower their taxes at our level ? How will they accept that ?
Or will shareholders have to forget about their profits to enable private companies to thrive? (As we did after the ash cloud by offering the service, while we were already in problems.)
Still not sure...
Our boss has told journalists that he does not understand why we are angry because everything we risk is to earn more money.
My feeling is that money is becoming less of a problem now. As civil-servants, we can not earn more, which is not necessarily bad, given what I just wrote. Clearances were tolerated for 40 years to partially offset the wage differential with other European controllers. As time is money, let's imagine that they accounted for 10 or 20 per cent (or even 30 if you wish) increase in our salaries, we were still far from the others. They no longer exist, so another (cheaper ?) solution has to be found...
Meanwhile, we are insulted in the press. I've read "lazy", "overpaid", "irresponsible", "unprofessional" in papers. Were they talking about me ?(I read those words on this forum too, but i don't mind : here, they are just "rumours")
Undoubtedly the aim is to destabilize controllers... Funny concept: "destabilizing controllers". As pilots, controllers are trained to resist the pressure. In the most difficult moments they will never give up. That's their job.
That must be why you see a connection with the pilots' strikes in the 90's.
By the way, will you stay as calm when the number of pilots will decrease from 2 to 1, then 0 ?
I hope not. And you'll have my total support. Nothing personal, it's just a question of safety ... thus macro-economy ...
From my point of view (according to Keynes ?), ATC (ie : infrastructure) should not have become an industry, it should have remained a service. Aviation needs money (a lot !), but earning money with it is bad .
ATC, fuel, airport taxes should decrease. Even my salary could decrease (a little !) if necessary, while remaining compatible with my responsibilities. Serving my country, Europe and the World's economy is important to me, as much a my wages. But I think I deserve a little more respect than what I'm being provided right now.
Respect seems to me the key.
Say "please" and "thank you" could do better than insults or threats. Maybe even better that increase our salaries (Hey, Hey ! That would have been a cheap solution !).
Anyway, I have no idea how this will end up, but I think it will be more expensive in the long term.
Flying in France, you have benefitted a cheap ATC in france since the beginning. This is nearly over. You wished it, you'll get it soon.
Hence my expression : "Good luck, anyway". Your company will cost me a lot again, whichever the way I pay.
[edit] :
The best way to avoid the inconvenience of a strike is and will always be to remove the reasons for the strike.
[end edit]
How in hell do we get 30 to 60 minute CTOTs then, by the way ???)
This is a garbling between the strike call, the "minimum service" law for transports, the French constitution, our rosters, and (maybe) the lack of trust between management and controllers (both ways).
We're working on that.
We are civil servants, our job is to provide a service for everyone's good.
Just let us do.
Is my story long enough this time ?
Hard to explain why French government fired a missile test Saturday afternoon...
Last edited by BrATCO; 26th Sep 2010 at 18:52.
