Not responding on 121.5

[BrATCO]

Mode S should solve frequency change problems when available all over Europe.
Waiting for that, we've got in the ops room a list of companies we can reach via ACARS. But I think those companies must have ops in france (not sure) so a message can be send with the right frequency.

It doesn't solve the problem for pilots who listen to 121.5 when it's crowded. It shoudn't be !
Usually, pilots say "12345" when they want to chat. I've never heard "1215".

What is this "practice Pan" procedure ? Do people use the emergency frequency for training, or ...???

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Thanks for the interesting comments, it basically comes down to why bother monitoring 121.5? I would prefer if you monitored the frequency that you were on and as has been said in other comments, monitor your position and if you have crossed an FIR then change frequency to that sector you are in. Nothing more frustrating than when an aircraft is in your sector and will not respond to calls and the previous sector tells you they have lost contact. Perhaps the sight of a pair of Tornado's or F16's off your wing will spur you into checking where you are and who you should be speaking to. As for practice pans.......a waste of time, we can handle your real emergency and we do not need the practice unless you guys do. That said, there are so many different circumstances surrounding aircraft emergencies which I will not go into, that is like the Chronicles of Narnia, but we only learn from the real situations. www.airdisaster.com has plenty of these that you can say, "How would I respond?"

Safe flying always guys, we are there to help if and when you need us.

[Jagohu]

I invite you to come with me in the cockpit of a 737 once. Some of our planes do not have intercom and the cockpit is very noisy. It is not so easy to find a ballance between the ATC volume on one ear and being able to listen over the other ear to the other pilot. If then people start chatting on 121.5 I have to turn it down or I will not be able to understand anything.

Well, I don't know about the rest but at us in Maastricht I hear the frequency either both ears of the headphone or in the right ear - left ear is for phone conversations with other sectors. In the meanwhile I'm listening to my coordinator controller sitting next to me about requested speeds/mil crossers/etc. Also 1-2 positions next to me sits my upper/lower sector I make direct coordination with, so I'm supposed to pay attention to them too. On top of all that my supervisor comes around or just shouts about military areas going active/deactivated, busy periods predicted, etc.
So I think we do know more or less how difficult it is to listen to many sources of information... but at least we're not bothered by the cabin crew ))

[Denti]

Maastricht makes it easy for us pilots, they offer CPDLC and that is really great especially for frequency changes or other stuff. Not all ATCOs there like to use it apparently, some do a mix, but it is still great as backup if nothing else. But could you do away with the annoying voice read back please?

[DFC]

Last year we answered 1300+ practices and there is clear evidence that these procedures assist pilots when it does go wrong. Controllers also need to practice!

How many of those civil practice pans were IFR flights within controlled airspace?

How many of those civil practice pans simulated spomething other than "unsure of position" i.e. lost?

How many hours do your controllers spend in the simulator training where emergency scenarios can be run from start to end rather than the usual "I'm pretending to be lost" - "You are there" - "Thanks, bye" which we hear over and over on 121.5.

Aircraft over Dijon can hear both Milano and London on 121.5 - often at the same time not to mention USAF Europe. Does anyone expect that to be listened to?

121.5 is the reason for most "say again" calls while in the cruise i.e. we sit there for 20 minutes in the cruise and London Centre starts transmitting a long paragraph about a temporary sar-ops area and we miss the call to transfer frequency from one mid- French sector to another.

So I believe that the more ACC's call on 121.5 for various non-emergency reasons, the more that other aircraft will miss calls from other ACC's to change frequency.

The wholoe practice pan UK thing has to be taken in the same light as the paragraph from a major UK training organisation's ATPL manual for navigation which says:

Lost procedure

make sure that while lost you do not infringe any controlled airspace.


Finally;

(every time you transmit we can see exactly where you are, with associated transponder info.

Not true unfortunately but I suppose the admin fills in the time between feeding the fish and responding to people who can't navigate in class G airspace!!

[DFC]

We can! And I do report abusers, particularly those who have used profanities on frequency in the past.

Please review the procedures for establishing identity.

You may have a good idea of who did it and I am in 100% favour of catching those that abuse the frequency but from experience, your information holds insuficient weight unless the abuser uses the aircraft callsign which counts out the real serial abusers (unfortunately).

For D&D, simulators are only of limited use - you have to know how to react to a pilot (who believes he/she is likely to crash) effectively. I have controlled people who were in tears and barely able to fly - you can not simulate that realistically.

and how many of these pilots in tears and barely able to fly were on practice pans? or how many times was that covered by practice pans befrore you had a real example?

Approximately 40% - you are possibly confusing Training Fixes / Lost pilots with Practice PANs.

No I am not confusing it at all. I was asking - of all the "practice calls" made by civil flights on 121.5, how many were simulating an emergency that did not involve being unsure of position and were continued to a realistic ending?

In my experience the vast majority of civil practice pans are simulating unsure of position and once "found" the exercise ends. At D+D the practice pan is allowed to proceed. The controller tells the pilot where the automatic position fix indicates and the exercise ends.

Years back when manual plotting was used I could agree with the requirement for live practice - many links in the chain required the practice. These days it is not so - for the majority of cases which are calls from within the autotriangulation area.

With 2 pilots in most CAT aircraft, I am surprised at the information missed in the cockpit due to 121.5 transmissions.

Yes. Two pilots listening to the same frerquencies - ACC on one and 121.5 on the other.

When you put on your headset, if you have a telephone coordination call in progress you have telephone in one ear and r/t in the other. With no telephone call you have r/t on both sides.

That is not a simple process and it would be far easier to route both pieces of information to both sides of the headset. Ever wonder why they don't do that?

Could it be to prevent the R/T and the telephone blocking eachother out?

[soaringhigh650]

Guys, this is an emergency frequency.

I don't call 911 for practice so please leave it alone unless you have an emergency.

Pilots should monitor the freq on COM2 where possible.

[mad_jock]

If you like it or not in the UK 121.5 has the function of also allowing practise calls. I doudt very much if it will ever change because it has proven air safety results. The ATC bods seem to have a pretty sure fire bunch of statistics which proves that CAT pilots that moan about it, are just that a bunch of moaning bastards.

And if GA don't do enough of them CAT does get asked to help out with controller training. I have had a couple overhead Glasgow, a couple further North up the old W3D and a couple on the East coast. Never been a problem with company rules and we were always happy to help out. Its actually pretty good fun. The first one was during my line training and the ex Mil LTC subjected the controller to a carrier wave only with a bit on morse thrown in. Which caused great hilarity with the tay sector controller "good drills lads you have got them sweating"

They don't bother me when I am flying at FL's in fact we must have had dodgy radios because while flying in a regional airline for 4 sectors a day 7 hours flying I heard them maybe once or twice a day if at all, all done and dusted in under 10 mins. As an Instructor linked in with the happy user friendly service from Scottish info they give confidence and knowledge to the aspiring PPL pilot.

Flying outside the UK 121.5 has way more traffic on it, frequency pickups when out of range/wrong one given for the FIR swap, pilots being arses, company traffic, sports scores etc. Very very rarely there is actually a Mayday on it. Heard one in 3 years outside europe, cloud seeder with a dodgy engine. From the conversation it was very evident that both the pilot and the ATCO could have done with a bit of practise pan training.

And to add in the last three years I have transmitted on 121.5 more times than I ever did working in the UK. Mostly its been with getting the sector frequency we are meant to be on when swapping on the IFR boundary, only to find the freq given is duff and we are out of range of the previous station. You don't realise how good things are in Northern Europe

[mad_jock]

Don't worry rogue DFC is a well known prat on the board in both the private flying forum and also especially the instructors forum.

Personally I think he is a Walt.

Stick him on ignore and everything makes sense again.

[fisbangwollop]

Dont forget a lot of these practice pans are actually for training purposes for the D and D controllers.....I ( Scottish info ) am often asked by my military friends at Scottish to put an aircraft over to 121.5 to perform a practice pan for training purposes for the controllers...........quite fun also when the aircraft does comply then forgets to use the word practice when making the initial call

[Check Mags On]

D&D

Yesterday Friday the 27th.

I heard D&D help a light aircraft pilot in the Ockham area.
She was obviously by the tone and fear that came across in her voice, in trouble.
D&D vectored another aircraft (with an instructor on board I think) on to her right wingtip.
Didn't hear what happened after the 2nd aircraft reported being on her wingtip. Had to go and get the volmet, atis, etc.

I hope it was resolved with a successful and happy ending.

But can I just say to all involved, a job well done and keep up the good work.
As both a 737 pilot and light aircraft instructor, I for one am grateful for your silent vigil.

[mad_jock]

Mad Jock - Thanks, I do like to try and gently persuade people

Lost cause I am afraid DFC will just argue the toss even if there is over powering informed opinion that they are talking bollocks.

[smellysnelly2004]

I have a question for DFC - have you ever been wrong about anything?

[topoverhaul]

My view lies with those who believe 121.5 should be reserved for genuine emergencies or loss of communication. If training is required it should be performed by simulation or if transmission is really required, on a quiet frequency.
CAT around the world monitors 121.5 on the 2nd box to aid those in distress and to provide a secondary communication channel if Box 1 is on the wrong frequency. This works well all over the world apart from the area from 15W to 5E and 50N to 55N. Here the NAA has declared to ICAO that 121.5 will be used for practice emergencies because a legacy triangulation system left over from the 1950s is used to provide a rough fix. Technology now offers many more effective solutions to lost aircraft.
The problem is that CAT at FL300+ in the said area is obliged to deselect 121.5 owing to the continuous practice traffic on that frequency which interfers with listening on the primary frequency. This leads to there being no secondary method of communication when primary communication is lost. This has already led to CAT being intercepted and escorted when availablity of 121.5 could have avoided this event.
I understand that with a certain high profile event being expected in 2012, the NAA will look again at maintaining a quiet 121.5, free of training fixes, and fully available as a loss of communication first stop.

[Lon More]

Much simpler than the above; if you've not been called for, say, 20 minutes, try calling the ATS unit for a check. Even if they've forgotten you or thought you'd been QSY'd you should still be in R/T range.

In the Netherlands we had a common approach freq., monitored by all units, which served the purpose of a local guard freq, and as such was used for Practice PANs etc.

[10W]

Topoverhaul

Here the NAA has declared to ICAO that 121.5 will be used for practice emergencies because a legacy triangulation system left over from the 1950s is used to provide a rough fix.

Who are the NAA ?

Roguetrooper

There is (in my opinion), a good case for providing a VHF frequency for Practice PANs / Training fixes etc. This is something I have recommended in the past. The stumbling point appears to be NATS who struggle to convince airlines the justification for the extra costs involved. Maybe this is a tack you could try through your own management.

I agree it is also a desirable thing to have. The stumbling block however is not NATS. NATS are contracted by the CAA through its En-Route licence to provide 121.5 so that the CAA can meet its ICAO obligations, which is then discharged jointly by NATS (who provide the kit) and the MoD (who provide the D&D human resources).

If the CAA want the practice frequency, they could vary NATS 'contract'. There would of course be a cost, which the CAA would have to arrange to be paid somehow. If the MoD want it, they could lobby the CAA, who could vary NATS contract. If the industry want it, they could lobby the CAA. who could vary NATS contract. I don't think NATS will volunteer to provide it on it's own initiative as it is not a NATS core service, and is actually not operated by them nor directly assists its own service provision.

121.5MHz is sadly over-used by CAT pilots/co-pilots who neither listen to and/or readback correct frequencies and therefore waste our time trying to get them onto the correct frequency - that is not what it was designed for.

121.5MHz is NOT a frequency to abuse because you have lost communication - the policy is to return to your previous frequency and confirm the new frequency you should change to; all too often abused by CAT.

There was a period when sleeping radios were a major cause, however, the manufacturers seem to have resolved most of those problems now (except for C17s ). The prime cause these days is usually down to the crews. Finger trouble selecting the correct frequency (and not having the sense to go back to the previous one when no contact can be made), turning down the volume inadvertently, reading back the wrong frequency and not waiting for ATC to reply with the correction, assuming the other guy is listening out when he isn't, etc, etc. A long list of factors which are in the main down to the humans making some sort of error. Increased use of Datalink will help in the future, both in terms of passing hard copy frequency changes to the flight deck and in being able to get hold of them quicker when they disappear from the frequency, but in the meantime, we'll all have to find ways to cope with the weakest links in the system.

[topoverhaul]

NAA is National Aviation Authority, a generic term but in UK it is the CAA.

The point that needs to be made with regard to the use of 121.5 for practice pans is that a survey of usage of the frequency by a ground based antenna will reveal many Txs in error from aircraft and thus the impression that these fill the frequency. However a survey by an airborne antenna will reveal that it is the lengthy Txs which a Practice Pan involves which fills the frequency and means that Tx on the primary frequency is missed or 121.5 must be turned down and thus be unavailable as a comms loss frequency over the UK and surrounding area.

[mad_jock]

However a survey by an airborne antenna will reveal

If an airborne survey reveals that you hear more than the ground based 121.5 recievers there is a major flaw in the 121.5 coverage for the UK.

[DFC]

On Wednesday this week, London Centre transmitted a SAROPs warning which took 45 seconds; the transmission was to warn pilots to avoid a SAR operation in progress - this allowed the Seaking to operate unimpeded.
The SAR Helo recovered 2 young girls who were drowning and very sadly one 17 year old boy who died in hospital. News Link is here: BBC News - Teenage boy dies and two girls injured in sea at Whitby

If you really take offence to these transmissions then it is a shame. Everyone involved in aviation should evaluate what is important and to try and respect other users. This shared frequency is vital to saving human life and if it means a little bit of frustration or interrupts your cosy conversation whilst in auto-pilot, then I am afraid you will have to put up with it.

The 45 seconds message which in my experience is repeated a number of times will be heard by several aircraft as far south as Paris.

It will not be heard by the several light aircraft operating as they normally do in the area described and either listening to the FIR or a local ATS frequency - or perhaps even none at all. The only time your average PPL in their C172, PA28 or Microlight tunes 121.5 is when they are about to do a practice pan.

Of course when one has the unfortunate experience of ditching and you are floating in your life jacket with the faint sound of a helicopter in the distance you start a transmission on your handheld 121.5 so that the heli can home in.......but they can't get it because several high power land stations are broadcasting a message to the world about SAR-OPS.

Of course one has to wonder about aircraft at 35,000ft being warned about a maritime accident. Do those ships that are flying those large sails at 1000ft get warned on the maritime distress frequency about low level helicopter air ambulance flights? Seems a far more likely conflict!

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MadJock,

I have reported your defamatory comments.

However, you might like to know that Scottish D+D does not have autotriangulation and if you bothered to read my post, I clearly said that in such a case, practice is sometimes necessary.

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2. We know who you are to an accuracy of 200ft to 320miles between 1500ft AMSL and FL660

You know the lateral location of the transmission you have received. That is not suficient to determine if the transmission came from something at 1000 or 35000ft.

In otherwords, you have a fair idea of who did it but you do not know exactly who did it unless you have someother information.

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3. Simulation is no replacement for the real thing - for pilots and controllers.

I don't think that several Aviation Authorities, several simulator training providers and several airlines who spend fortunes providing simulator training - not to mention the several pilots who provide their time for free to UK atc and give assistance to make the TRUCE training better! would agree.

Isn't the whole idea of simulation so that we dont have to wait for the real thing to happen?

Perhaps the next time an airline wants to practice it's disaster plan it should call Sky News and 999 and the Home Office and so forth so that they can see if it works!!

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The UK is not unique in providing the fixing service on 121.5.

It is unique in allowing live practice.

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smellysnelly2004,

Only when it comes to carrot top Canary fans!!

[DFC]

God forbid one if your loved ones is ever in need of urgent assistance but a rescue is delayed due to a TDA infringement

Do you think that any of the traffic that would be likely to hinder a rescue operation at 2000ft ASFC or lower monitor 121.5?

Does anyone else believe that PPLs (or any other form of licence holder) on VFR flights in microlights, gliders, Cessna, Piper and all the other types flown in the club / training environment............in otherwords 99% of the traffic in class G who could come into conflict with a SAR operation monitor 121.5?

What is the target audience of these sar-ops transmissions?

If the London / Scottish FIS frequency and the nearby ATS units made the warning calls then there is a far higher probability that it would reach the desired audience.

As best this could be described as helf & safety box ticking.

Therefore if I am awash in my lifejacket, I would prefer if the FIS and local ATC units issued the warnings and 121.5 tramsmissions were limited so that the SAR heli can home onto my 121.5 transmissions.

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I am not going to waste my time teaching you how to corroborate Mode 3/A , Mode-S, 406MHz database data with an exact lateral location fix.

You don't have to.

The 406 database is available for use only when a 406 transmission is received and the information in the database is protected and only available for SAR purposes.

The Mode S hex is different in that it is public information.

You have the exact lateral location of a transmission. Just because an aircraft is directly above that position does not in itself prove that the aircraft made the transmissions or that it is the only one at that location.......unless as I have said several times you have other information such as the pilot uses their callsign;

a joke from before your time to illustrate;

B747 and C152 are taxying out to the active runway. They are clearly in a race to be first away and each reporting "ready on reaching" etc etc etc.

The ATCO sees what is happening and after an aircraft lands says "OK, which one of you guys wants to go first?"

Ther is an immediate response in a deep well cultured airline pilot voice saying "Shucks I think we'll let the little fella go first"

The take-off clearance to the C152 was partially blocked by the B747 pilot saying "we did not say that" but the C152 acknowledged and departed.

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Just hope that when my friend with the Big Airline Captain voice makes a practice pan call directly below something at 35,000 you don't assume it is a jet!!

Finally, ...........how far again to the edge of the autotriangulation area?