ATC situation in Spain

[p_perez]

Hello!

Wow! so many things to say, and also so many thanks to give (andrijander, Tarq57, beaver liquor ...), I´ll try to answer and comment briefly.

First, thank you very much to all the people that showed their solidarity with us here in "banana republic" Spain. It is hard to read about these conditions, but believe me, much harder to live and work under them. There is a detail I did not mention, but can also help you to make yourself an idea of the kind of politicians that rule Spain nowdays: Mr "Pepińo" Blanco, the Spanish minister of Development, responsible for the planning of all this abuse with the help of american company McKinsey (read about them at McKinsey & Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), they also helped with Railtrack, the British railway company, and with mass suicidal´s France Telecom.

Well, from a personal point of view, what´s curious at least here is that Mr Blanco´s formation is limited to High School: he tried to study Law, but never completed 1st year. This guy is responsible for all public works in Spain and a possible successor for disastrous Mr. Zapatero. All of us ATCO´s in Spain have, at least, completed 3 years of university, and most of us have a complete carreer.

For SINGAPURCANAC: man, you must be the comic relief of this thread. Guys: we have a humorist with us! Really, with increasing 5.000.000 unemployed in Spain (more than 20%), you want us to resign our job just because they abuse us? The number of ATCO´s that have resigned is YOUR messure of the abuse we are suffering? I´m complaining because I had decent working conditions similar to those my colleagues in France, Germany, Italy or Portugal have. It is not salary our main concern, it´s "only" that we are buying too many tickets for the airplane-accident lottery, and that is a game we don´t want to play!

Many of us have tried to apply for an ATC job in other countries, I was even willing to go to our antipodes at NZ with my wife and kids! That is a better messure of how pissed off we are in Spain.


Regarding our salary, I don´t really understand the curiosity about this matter. I hope it has nothing to be with the idea that the higher the pay, the bigger the abuse you must endure. Our salary was very high in the past (before february 5th) because we worked sooo much voluntary overtime. Our 1200 hrs/year came from the fact that we used to be state workers: in Spain, state workers labour 1820 hrs/year (52 weeks x 35 hrs), but they don´t work night shifts, nor weekends, nor 15 national/autonomous/provincial/local holydays. The Spanish goverment had 2 choices here: pay ATCO´s more for those hrs. or discount them from our yearly amount: they chose the later. So that´s why our yearly hrs. became 1200 efective (not including vacations or trainning), even after our employer changed to AENA and we were no longer state workers.

In the last years, with the rise in air traffic, AENA had another choice to make: train and hire new controllers, or offer well paid voluntary overtime to the ATCO´s already working. They once again chose the later. The average yearly hrs in the last years have been around 1750 hrs/year/ATCO, VOLUNTARY OVERTIME. Not everybody accepted overtime, not all the time either.

What they have now done is make that overtime mandatory for everyone. And the salary has been reduced up to a 70% for those hrs. In my case, just to satisfy someone´s curiosity around here, last pay was 3500 €, in a month were I "enjoyed" 2 mandatory recalls with less than 24 hrs notice, and knowing that they included a 14 day complementary pay which will be eliminated from next month´s pay. How much will I get next month? 1st, I don´t know; 2nd, less than 3500 € for sure.


For Nightstop: I´m sorry, but I don´t work al Madrid TMA, so I can´t help you with that specific matter. But have in mind what I said of the particular situation they are going through: 30% of the most experienced ATCO´s working in Madrid TMA (app) have been retired from operational, and have been replaced by not so experienced colleagues that come from enroute positions or non-operational jobs outside the ACC. Give them time to get the expertise, please.


Saludos!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@p perez,
1. I am not your enemy!
2. I am not against ATCOs,because I am atco itself,

I have just tried to explain situation that you have already faced or you will encounter very soon.

All those things ,previously mentioned, I saw more than once in my aviation carrier. Needles to say that any single atcos help us/me in such cases,but neverless we also didn't cry publicly.

If you count my 15 years struggle and fight with management about the same issues, than you will accept that my opinion is not nice for ears but works in real life.
So for particular Spanish case it will be:

-ATCOs will accept changes,without too many resistance ,because,previously they earned a lot of money and bought enough properties for rent,or shares in well established international companies or investment funds, or there is huge amount money at the bank account,at least,which will give an extra revenues on already high salaries in situation where majority of people are on the edge.

-Once again it will attract newcomers to apply for job in your company that will give idea to management that conditions are quite good,and at least they could think about reducing them for some less important units.

-Some atcos will refuse such way and will try somewhere else,than they will realize numbers and conditions as stated earlier plus that many countries worldwide do not recognize Spanish licenses or there are a waiting list with hundreds of native English speakers atcos with a little bit more priority than non native English speakers.

-It will remain number of active ATCOs at the stable level so management will once again pointed out that T&C are at least adequate,with all implication....

- Situation will be quite negative,but accident free,or at least there won't be direct connection between accident and staff level or staff salary.

there will be a few more issues but if you ask yourself is it already looks like CATCH 22,yes it is.
And you,me or anyone else is not in position to change conditions.
So that is the true. Not nice for ears but works in real life.
Anyhow best regards

[Del Prado]

Our salary was very high in the past (before february 5th) because we worked sooo much voluntary overtime. Our 1200 hrs/year came from the fact that we used to be state workers: in Spain, state workers labour 1820 hrs/year (52 weeks x 35 hrs), but they don´t work night shifts, nor weekends, nor 15 national/autonomous/provincial/local holydays. The Spanish goverment had 2 choices here: pay ATCO´s more for those hrs. or discount them from our yearly amount: they chose the later. So that´s why our yearly hrs. became 1200 efective (not including vacations or trainning), even after our employer changed to AENA and we were no longer state workers.

In the last years, with the rise in air traffic, AENA had another choice to make: train and hire new controllers, or offer well paid voluntary overtime to the ATCO´s already working. They once again chose the later. The average yearly hrs in the last years have been around 1750 hrs/year/ATCO, VOLUNTARY OVERTIME. Not everybody accepted overtime, not all the time either.

What they have now done is make that overtime mandatory for everyone. And the salary has been reduced up to a 70% for those hrs. In my case, just to satisfy someone´s curiosity around here, last pay was 3500 €, in a month were I "enjoyed" 2 mandatory recalls with less than 24 hrs notice, and knowing that they included a 14 day complementary pay which will be eliminated from next month´s pay. How much will I get next month? 1st, I don´t know; 2nd, less than 3500 € for sure.

This makes very sobering reading, particularly to anyone that works in a short staffed Ops room where overtime is quickly becoming the norm.

Thanks for being so frank p_perez, good luck to you and your colleagues.

[p_perez]

Hello!

just a brief message with an example of how nonsense is reaching such high levels in our profession lately ...

A female coleague working at LEMD (Barajas´TWR) was "granted" by AENA with one of those mandatory recalls I already told you about: she was just about to finish her morning shift, when someone from the staff of HR visited the TWR and told her that she had to return to work that night. My colleague is themother of a baby, and couldn´t find anybody with such a short notice to babysit him. So the only solution she found is to attend the service that night, taking the baby with her. Of course, she had to take the craddle and the feeding bottle, along with the meal for the dinner. The baby had to go through the security screening process, were the surprised security personnel assigned him an ID badge for his overnight stay.

By now, you migh think I went bananas, and all this is nothing but invention, well here you go:




More news soon!

[S76Heavy]

Messing about safety critical staff T&Cs is clearly a flight safety issue. How switched on will a mother be with her child with her while on an unexpected shift? How alert will a controller be if unable to plan their rest and social life because they are at the whim of bean counters who think of it as a big chess game?

Never mind the financial aspect (which is cause for a lot of stress by itself), the duty/rest cycles being messed about should surely be cause for international alarm.
Why are Spain not taken to task over the issue in the European arena? How is it that AENA can neglect studies about human performance in safety critical positions?
Where is IFALPA for instance in this matter? They should be issuing black stars for lack of well rested controllers..

I'm sure the government are counting on the sentiment of the people who feel that the controllers have nothing to complain about regarding their salaries and jobs, but this is a serious breech of safety and perhaps people should worry about the chances of big lumps of metal falling out of the sky..

[10W]

Unbelievable.

Perhaps your union should point your management towards the UK legal requirements which are placed on both employers and ATC Licence holders (known as SRATCOH).

It can be found in Appendix D here.

I believe the case you mention would be illegal under UK law.

It was brought in to prevent fatigue and human factors problems associated with ATC and shift working. As we are all supposed to be aligning in Europe, maybe it's time the Spanish government got on board with its safety obligations ?

If I was the lady in question, I think I may have developed a stomach bug an hour before my night duty and let the management pick up the pieces.

[eagleflyer]

I would have found a stomach bug

at the beginning of the night shift and would have had to be sure it had really gone before returning to work...maybe after five days or so.

How much rest do you think she had before the night shift with a baby to attend at home? This is really worrying...

[saintex2002]

Dear eagletflyer , u seem to have definitely understood the spanish concern...
To p_perez, keep on truckin' and suerte....

[p_perez]

CORRECTION: In my previous post, I made a mistake with the gender of the controller that had to take HIS son to one of the LEMD TWR´s for a mandatory night service: it was a MALE colleague. The rest of the information is correct. Another case ocurred 2 weeks ago, this time at Madrid ACC: a female colleague, mother of 2 children, had to take them both with her to spend the night at the ACC while she had to comply with the forced night shift imposed by AENA. At Sevilla ACC, 3/4 weeks ago, a mother of a 9 month old baby girl that was finishing her morning shift was told by AENA staff that she had to return that night to work from 2200 till 0800 next day; in this case, it coincided that her husband is also a ATCO at Sevilla TWR, and had night service that finished at 0230. This time, fortunately, grandparents where at hand and the girls could sleep in her craddle at home. In all 3 cases, AENA management was informed of the special circumstances. No palliative action was taken.


Hello!

thank you for your interest in our situation. I can assure you that we all have the conviction that the trend is in-crescendo regarding AENA´s pressure on us. With the summer season in it´s beginning, air traffic on the rise as well as sick leaves, the situation can only get worse during the next 3 months. We allready have people with a disciplinary expedient opened by AENA for refusing to pick up the notification of a forced service and there for, not attending it. This disciplinary expedient can lead to being fired.

We have fought, and are still fighting, in the legal terrain in Spanish courts, but Justice in Spain is strongly influenced by politics. The first ruling in our battle to reach the Constitutional Court had an adverse ruling: Mr. Ricardo Bodas, president of the Social Hall of the National Court, found no trace of unconstitutionality in the law against Spanish ATCO´s. This judge is the former Director General of Relations between the Spanish Goverment and the Justice Administration (a political position), and became judge by a special procedure (called "3er turno" = "3rd turn") that allows the goverment to nominate any lawyer as judge at own discretion.

We are also giving the International arena a chance, and presently we have open procedures at the European Parliament, at the European Commission, and at the Luxemburg Court. USCA will also file a complaint at the International Labour Organization (ILO) for the unilaterall modification by AENA and the Spanish goverment of the T&C´s between AENA and ATCO´s.

Several organizations have published statements about our situation, like IFATCA (http://www.ifatca.org/press/080210.pdf), IFALPA (http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Leve...%20dispute.pdf) OR ATCEUC (http://www.atceuc.org/upload/ATC-EUC...s-in-spain.pdf), and several other in Spain.

Next june 18th we have elections in USCA, and hopefully our new leaders will reconduct this disaster, recovering dignity for the proffesionals, and common sense and safety concern for the AENA management.

Saludos!

[beaver liquor]

P Perez,

Thank you for sharing your latest intolerable situation.

How come this photo hasnt ended up on the front page of El Mundo or El Pais?

Or have the government completely turned public opinion against ATCOs?

[LH2]

FWIW

How come this photo hasnt ended up on the front page of El Mundo or El Pais?

...not sure which photo that would be, assuming you are not talking figuratively, but I would assume the media do not feel like playing into the hands of the controller's union. I do not base this on any specific information, just making a general remark.

Never mind the financial aspect (which is cause for a lot of stress by itself), the duty/rest cycles being messed about should surely be cause for international alarm.

Indeed.

Why are Spain not taken to task over the issue in the European arena? How is it that AENA can neglect studies about human performance in safety critical positions?

I understand this might have changed as of late, but until recently it was not AENA but the controllers themselves who set their own work schedule. Some if not most of them would regularly work multiple back-to-back shifts in order to get longer spells of time off (or earn rather valuable overtime, depending on the size of their mortgage ). I imagine it might be a bit awkward to complain about being told to work back-to-backs when you used to do that of your own accord.

Where is IFALPA for instance in this matter? They should be issuing black stars for lack of well rested controllers..

Agreed (whatever a black star is in this context). However, the situation is not at all new, as explained above.

Over in the Rumours section someone suggests ATCOs from outside Spain should take a jumpseat ride into Madrid before stepping in defence of the Southern element. I cannot but second that man's impressions on the other thread. It doesn't have to be MAD, btw, with a couple of exceptions any other AENA airport will do. I think you might struggle to hear of anyone with any experience of flying in Spain who will be sympathetic to their controller's grievance.

[aldegar]

I've just received my schedule for July. AENA has started programming what we call "zulus", in which the same day you work the morning and the night shift (and usually also means working in the afternoon the day before and the day after...).

The good thing is that I have few chances of getting mandatory recalls... because I have no space in my schedule for them because I work almost every day (in 33 days, from the 7th of june to the 10th of july,only two days off).

And I have a new born baby and my wife starts working again in a few days (on shifts also). I'll have to start checking with the Security staff what are the requirements to get my son an ID card. AENA (which is the same as writing the spanish government) has really done an excellent job in ruining my family life.

[Jagohu]

I've just received my schedule for July. AENA has started programming what we call "zulus", in which the same day you work the morning and the night shift (and usually also means working in the afternoon the day before and the day after...).

We used to do that in Maastricht, but abandoned it in January - it's a huge relief that you don't have to work the morning before the night - it completely screws up your biorythm.
I hope your situation will get better soon!

[undervaluedATC]

I've just received my schedule for July. AENA has started programming what we call "zulus", in which the same day you work the morning and the night shift

Airservices has been inflicting (or allowing us to inflict ourselves - depending on your viewpoint) with that very thing for at least the last 10 years

[Tarq57]

@undervaluedATC
Same situation here.
Except that we get slightly more than 2 days off in every 33.
How about you?

Isn't anybody remotely concerned about the fatigue issue with these controllers?
Or do most PPrune users just prefer to snipe at their perceived shortcomings?
This will probably end in tears.

[10W]

Why don't the Spanish ATC Union speak to the UK CAA about the UK's legal setup (SRATCOH) ? Ask them why it was brought in (to combat fatigue) and how it works in practice ... very well.

Or ask the union to forward a copy of a typical Spanish roster to the UK union (Prospect) and some of their experts could detail all the various ways in which it would be breaking UK law.

Time for air safety to take the driving seat and force Europe to introduce a scheme regulating hours for ATC staff. It doesn't have to be exactly the UK system, but that would be a good starting point and hard to better.

[p_perez]

Hello!

July rosters have just been published for all ATCO´s in Spain. Nothing new: as expected, many services with few (VERY FEW) days off, vacation periods granted (or not) at AENA´s discretion, abundant "zulu"-days (morning and night service in the same day - 17 hr. work time in a 24 hr. period) ... AENA staff is refining their Machiavellianism: we have the chance of changing our shifts between colleagues; if you need it (a wedding, school activities with the kids, any other social event …), you can ask a mate to work in your place a certain day. AENA staff has to approve these shift changes. What they also do, every now and then, is endorse you an express (mandatory recall) shift precisely on those days you liberated yourself from work. AENA is the absolute owners of your life, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Take note, if you are offered an ATC job in Spain abroad, of what some of your conditions would be.

I will try to clarify the direct routing/non-filed FL point regarding our present situation: sector capacity has been put to a strain since late 2009 in Spain. On December 28th, 2009 (Spanish “Fools Day”), Spanish ATC Authority declared that the Maximum Sector Capacity (MSC) would result from increasing a 10% the Declared Sector Capacity (DSC) during a period not superior to 1 hour. This means that in Spain, sector traffic is not regulated until it´s capacity is expected to pass 110% declared capacity. For example, in my ACC, we have sectors with a DSC of 35 TFCs/hr: a regulation is not imposed until 39 TFCs/hr are expected. Often in summer (very often indeed …) those sectors work with 38 TFCs/hr: any direct routing, or takeoff before CTOT, or not-expected FL can mean a serious overload. ATCO´s in that situation are helpless, and do their best to solve a situation that, this is the funny part, probably has been caused by a good-willing colleague in a previous sector.

You already know about the Eurocontrol document regardingFlight Plan & ATFCM Adherence (EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence). There´s another Spanish document which also enforces this matter. It is the response of Mr. Juan Alberto Cózar Maldonado (AENA´s Quality, Safety and Certification Director) to Mr. Juan Rosas Díaz (AESA´s Safety Director), dated on april 15th, 2010. This is an excerpt:

“(…) Note that these failures in FMS (Flow Management System) are not caused by the FMS itself; overloads mentioned are caused by diverse factors, like shortcuts in their expected routes, clearance to FL´s not filed in their FP´s, and takeoffs before their calculated takeoff time, all these acts cause that certain sectors receive more TFC´s than expected, at a different timing than that calculated by FMS”

I can scan the document if needed, just need to know how to post it if you want.


All Spanish controllers receive a very big book when they start working, called RCA (Air Circulation Regulation). It is our Bible, it´s the RULE we legally have to follow in our job. There is an Air Safety Law (LSA) from 2003, that can impose very high economic penalties over ATCO´s that don´t work BY THE RULE in case there is an incident/accident. We shouldn´t be ranted for following the RULE. And for all those pilots all of a sudden worried about saving the planet, mostly from UK (in their profile), want to talk about BP and the Gulf of Mexico for a change?


I´ve noticed 3 types of response to our situation from readers of this forum:

• Understanding: what can I say, “thank you so much!” (specially 10W for his great contributions) It is very rewarding to see the important part of the message (the one regarding SAFETY) has been delivered. We can live with lower salaries, we can work with not so good T&C´s, but all this abuse must stop, ´cause it´s affecting our work in a very negative way. And the consequences are just starting to be noticed.
• Jealousy?? Some keep on talking about high salaries and good T&C´s, even as an excuse for the present punishment against ATCO´s. They keep ignoring that all the “good times” WERE, and ARE NOT any more, and that even in the past, it was AENA´s decision to pay for overtime instead of hiring new controllers. The media campaign Spanish government and AENA conducted against us in the national and international arena should be studied in the future as an extraordinary example of how to plant false statements prior to a governmental abuse. Once again, imposed arbitrary working conditions that come very close to SLAVERY, can only harm the SAFETY of air traffic in Spain.
• HATE: some examples from the thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-6.html :

“Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English that's understandable and actually speak into the microphone on the headset rather than talking into a bucket...” Whispering Giant

"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid.”
"When flying, turns away of 90 degrees to allow spanish aircraft over/undertake. So frustrating but sadly you grow to accept that this is the Spanish way."
“They are the worlds most skilled controllers - at diverting other aircraft off track so that Spanish aircraft can over/undertake!
If only they were fair and honourable in their activities; they would then be respected by all, rather than laughed at.”
"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid."
"In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively."
"For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.
No respect for you guys whatsoever." kick the tires

“Are Spanish ATC really among the best paid in Europe while being (one of) the worst on the European continent? What a waste of money, I'd say!” sabenaboy

"10W you put a good case forward for why adherence to flight plans is important. However in this case I think it misses the point. Our Spanish colleagues are not doing this to fix the system. They are doing this because it supports their dispute with the Spanish government to protect the kind of things that are ironically refered to worldwide in industrial relations language as 'spanish practices'." lederhosen

"if the Germans and French and Swiss and even the Italians can get English down and use it why cant the Spanish controllers! there a joke."
“there a bunch of useless ****s”
"the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!"
"but they really really cant understand English."
"but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s" zerotohero

"The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level." maybepilot

"Thought it was because of my callsign! Full sids and stars into Madrid with lights traffic. Was also denied a higher cruise level because we were filed at a lower level!! Totally unprofessional." TolTol

"It's a bunch of amateurs taking care of serious business." Fuel Dump

Come on! We are not all that bad, are we? Anyway, no comments on this from me, guess I received a “different” education from my family, because there´s nothing personal in the previos example, uh guys?

Give a look to the trailer of a documentary financed by some Spanish ATCO´s. It´s still a teaser, and only in Spanish, but you can see the faces of some of my colleagues. Who knows, some may even consider the idea that we are human beings after all!

www.youtube.com/v/zLy1LHrqsHY


Saludos!

[kick the tires]

perez - an interesting if one sided posting.

Why have you chosen not to comment on the 'hate' postings? Do you not recognise the comments and situations?

I think a more appropriate title would be "frustrations' rather than hate.

[aldegar]

Kick the tyres, I have no problems in commenting the "hate" postings, and no, I don't recognize the comments and situations.

- First of all, nobody is perfect and EVERYBODY makes mistakes. Spanish ATCOS could also write a veeeeeery long list of complaints about pilots (spanish and from abroad).

- About our english, well it's very easy to criticize being from the UK... My english will obviously not be as good as yours no matter how hard I try, but I don't see those communication problems in my ACC. I could also complain about english speaking pilots not sticking to standard aeronautical english and of non-english speaking pilots with a very poor level of english. And sometimes the "station calling say again" has nothing to do with our level of english but with the poor quality of our radios or because we were busy coordinating with other sectors/controllers (yes, controllers also speak between them). By the way, we were required a very high level of english when we got in, but in ten years working in AENA I haven't received any training to maintain my level of english (and believe me, I don't intend to spend my 2 days off out of every 33 attending english classes).

- Spanish aircraft don't have priority, whoever has to be first will be first no matter the nationality (check the "you know you work in atc when" thread, about pilots being like kids...)

- The procedures in Spain are awful, but that's not our fault, we are also victims.

- About making the full SIDs and STARs and sticking strictly to the final flight level in the FPL, we've been threatened by AENA to BE FIRED if we don't comply. And in the current situation in which our sectors are constantly being overloaded, I just can't risk to give a direct to somebody and cause an overload to a colleague (I'm also an overloaded sector sufferer). We are working in the limit and precisely yesterday I suffered a very critical situation while working due to this.


And I could keep on writing, but I have to spend some time with my baby son before I go back to work in a few hours (again).

[nelsonmadiba]

I`m disgusted in seeing how bad things have gone in spain,but I`m even more disgusted in seeing that nobody OUTSIDE spain has done anything to support our spanish colleagues.

we`re here talking about single sky,bla bla and all that cr@p,but still nobody is going to help them.

their problem could become our problem one day,and if we don`t help each other there`s no way we`ll all live a better life.

greetz