Why the attitude?!
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Why the attitude?!
Hi everyone, I'm finally breaking my silence on PRUNE, I'm not alyways this grumpy but recently something happened which I'd like your views on.
So I was recently holding at one of the bussier airports in the south east when we were cleared to line up but the stopbar remained illuminated. There was company traffic of the same type at a parallel holding point so the captain asked me to confirm the line up clearance. The exchange with ATC was as follows,
Me "A123 holding at the A1 stopbar, confirm cleared to line up"
Tower (In a very sharp tone)"AFFIRM, the engineers,,,,,sigh,,,A123 HOLD POSITION"
So we held position for another few minutes while two aircraft landed.
Tower "A123 line up"
Stop bar remains illuminated.
My captain "A123 confirm we are cleared to cross the A1 stopbar please?"
Tower (Now sounding like somebody has keyed his new car) "A123 AFFIRM, The lights are on for the engineers I have no control over them!!"
As we were on the takeoff roll I heard another aircraft having the exact same conversation with air traffic.
Now as far as I was aware a stop bar is a no crossing line. If air traffic want us to cross a lit stop bar then it is surely good airmanship to confirm the clearance, especially if there is company traffic at the next hold.
To be fair there was a note on the ATIS saying the taxyway lights may be on for engineering but nothing about the stop bars.
It wasn't the engineering works that annoyed me, what really got my goat was the controllers tone and impatience at pilots who were simply working on the safe side at one of the UK's busiest airports. Had there have been confusion and we had crossed the stop bar with the wrong clearance our flight safety department would have had a field day with us!
I appreciate that this whole process would have messed up the controllers arriving/departing timing but surely if this was a problem they could put a note on the ATIS saying line up clearance can be taken as clearance to cross the stopbar.
What are peoples thaughts?
So I was recently holding at one of the bussier airports in the south east when we were cleared to line up but the stopbar remained illuminated. There was company traffic of the same type at a parallel holding point so the captain asked me to confirm the line up clearance. The exchange with ATC was as follows,
Me "A123 holding at the A1 stopbar, confirm cleared to line up"
Tower (In a very sharp tone)"AFFIRM, the engineers,,,,,sigh,,,A123 HOLD POSITION"
So we held position for another few minutes while two aircraft landed.
Tower "A123 line up"
Stop bar remains illuminated.
My captain "A123 confirm we are cleared to cross the A1 stopbar please?"
Tower (Now sounding like somebody has keyed his new car) "A123 AFFIRM, The lights are on for the engineers I have no control over them!!"
As we were on the takeoff roll I heard another aircraft having the exact same conversation with air traffic.
Now as far as I was aware a stop bar is a no crossing line. If air traffic want us to cross a lit stop bar then it is surely good airmanship to confirm the clearance, especially if there is company traffic at the next hold.
To be fair there was a note on the ATIS saying the taxyway lights may be on for engineering but nothing about the stop bars.
It wasn't the engineering works that annoyed me, what really got my goat was the controllers tone and impatience at pilots who were simply working on the safe side at one of the UK's busiest airports. Had there have been confusion and we had crossed the stop bar with the wrong clearance our flight safety department would have had a field day with us!
I appreciate that this whole process would have messed up the controllers arriving/departing timing but surely if this was a problem they could put a note on the ATIS saying line up clearance can be taken as clearance to cross the stopbar.
What are peoples thaughts?
You should never get attitude from ATC - it is a potential safety hazard and probably weighed on your mind for some part of the flight. We are, however, all human and sometimes we have all had enough.
You are absolutely correct that you should not cross an illuminated stop-bar without specific instruction. It is not a good habit to get in to and not very clever of a controller to encourage this.
It is conceivable that the controller in question was not miffed with you so much as with themselves for forgetting about the engineering checks/light switches or miffed with the fact that the lights are always broken - constantly broken systems do start to get a little wearing after a while.
You are absolutely correct that you should not cross an illuminated stop-bar without specific instruction. It is not a good habit to get in to and not very clever of a controller to encourage this.
It is conceivable that the controller in question was not miffed with you so much as with themselves for forgetting about the engineering checks/light switches or miffed with the fact that the lights are always broken - constantly broken systems do start to get a little wearing after a while.
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I'd guess not impatience with the pilots, but rather exasperation at the airport operator who put them in a position where they would have to answer the same query from every crew, every time. Sometimes you forget to take a deep breath & smile before hitting the tx pedal!
ap
ap
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Greetings Autopilot Off,
Red stop bar stays on. You stay where you are. Good call.
ATCO gets grumpy 'cos the system's packed up. Again. Bad call.
Airport company should then get a follow-me car out to see you across the red stop bar 'cos we (ATCOs and Pilots) are not capable of making a sensible decision to co-ordinate a crossing of red stop bar when their system has failed. Of course airport vehicles are very familiar with crossing red stop bars as they have to do it all the time. But of course they won't get into the habit of doing so. Nor would they do so in LVPs or....................
Pilot files air safety report with company and CAA take great interest and discuss failings in airport lighting with airport company.
Airport company take appropriate remedial action.
And th next time you come to same red stop bar at same airport please start reading at first paragraph.
Sorry. Rant over. You were right first time. Don't cross red stop bars. See what happens next.
OK, I'll get my coat
Red stop bar stays on. You stay where you are. Good call.
ATCO gets grumpy 'cos the system's packed up. Again. Bad call.
Airport company should then get a follow-me car out to see you across the red stop bar 'cos we (ATCOs and Pilots) are not capable of making a sensible decision to co-ordinate a crossing of red stop bar when their system has failed. Of course airport vehicles are very familiar with crossing red stop bars as they have to do it all the time. But of course they won't get into the habit of doing so. Nor would they do so in LVPs or....................
Pilot files air safety report with company and CAA take great interest and discuss failings in airport lighting with airport company.
Airport company take appropriate remedial action.
And th next time you come to same red stop bar at same airport please start reading at first paragraph.
Sorry. Rant over. You were right first time. Don't cross red stop bars. See what happens next.
OK, I'll get my coat
Autopilot
I trust that you have reported it. Since last month, in the UK, the following has been the RT requirement in the circumstances that you describe:
"Stop-bar unserviceable, cross red stop-bar, via (holding point
designator) line up runway (designator)".*
*Only to be used in the case of an inoperable red stop-bar.
Yahoo
A bold statement!
2 s
I trust that you have reported it. Since last month, in the UK, the following has been the RT requirement in the circumstances that you describe:
"Stop-bar unserviceable, cross red stop-bar, via (holding point
designator) line up runway (designator)".*
*Only to be used in the case of an inoperable red stop-bar.
Yahoo
I guarantee this wouldn't have happened at a NATS unit
A bold statement!
2 s
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stop bars
CAP 493 SI 2009/16 Crossing Inoperable Red Stop-Bars Withdrawn 12 March 2010
Although this is withdrawn and now incorporated in MATS1 its been revised and the controller should have been aware of the revised phraseology and procedures now stated in the latest edition of CAP493.
Although this is withdrawn and now incorporated in MATS1 its been revised and the controller should have been aware of the revised phraseology and procedures now stated in the latest edition of CAP493.
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Hi all, thanks a lot for your replies. I really appreciate your inputs to this.
This took place at Gatwick and it just surprised me that something this "non-standard" would happen at a place as busy as LGW.
The occurance has indeed been reported and I will certainly have a lot more confidence in future to hold position if a similar situation occurs again.
I completely appreciate that it's an intense job co-ordinating the traffic at somewhere as busy as LGW and I've developed a lot of respect for the controllers having seen them vector us through some tight gaps to get onto the ILS with the right seperation.
Thanks again all.
This took place at Gatwick and it just surprised me that something this "non-standard" would happen at a place as busy as LGW.
The occurance has indeed been reported and I will certainly have a lot more confidence in future to hold position if a similar situation occurs again.
I completely appreciate that it's an intense job co-ordinating the traffic at somewhere as busy as LGW and I've developed a lot of respect for the controllers having seen them vector us through some tight gaps to get onto the ILS with the right seperation.
Thanks again all.
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<<I guarantee this wouldn't have happened at a NATS unit >>
Yeah.... it only happened about every day I worked at a major airfield! Having a blanket instruction that "you will not cross red stop bars" would have simply shut the whole place down. Hope it's all hunky-dorey now.
Yeah.... it only happened about every day I worked at a major airfield! Having a blanket instruction that "you will not cross red stop bars" would have simply shut the whole place down. Hope it's all hunky-dorey now.
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<<<Having a blanket instruction that "you will not cross red stop bars" would have simply shut the whole place down.>>
HD, agreed, but if you recollect there are two reasons pilots told us that 'they're just crossing this stop bar, OK?'. The first was unserviceability, which in our time was at a, er, dire level (sorry), and the other was that a pilot, knowing far better than the ATCO and L/Op put together, would assume that the lack of visible aluminium in the next block meant his own taxying would be uninterrupted.
I well remember two incidents related to this - when 37Inner was shut, and 37Outer was the only way to get to 09R westbound and the November stands Eastbound. An A*r*K Friendship took it upon himself to cross the 21O/37O bar at speed westbound, and promptly found himself nose to nose with a 757. Ooops. Good job he was able to turn round in his own length.....*
The other one was far more serious - One outbound from the Victors, one inbound, two impatient pilots, LVPs, and a cocky and inexperienced controller who just told them to basically do their own thing. You might remember that I threw Teddy way beyond his cot that day, and I never trusted that particular 'controller' again.
Stop bars save lives, impatient taxying saves a minute or so. I /KNOW/ I was old fashioned, but which is more important?
*(Readers under 50 will have to dig out old maps to see the areas Im referring to...)
Rant over, back to the decorating
HD, agreed, but if you recollect there are two reasons pilots told us that 'they're just crossing this stop bar, OK?'. The first was unserviceability, which in our time was at a, er, dire level (sorry), and the other was that a pilot, knowing far better than the ATCO and L/Op put together, would assume that the lack of visible aluminium in the next block meant his own taxying would be uninterrupted.
I well remember two incidents related to this - when 37Inner was shut, and 37Outer was the only way to get to 09R westbound and the November stands Eastbound. An A*r*K Friendship took it upon himself to cross the 21O/37O bar at speed westbound, and promptly found himself nose to nose with a 757. Ooops. Good job he was able to turn round in his own length.....*
The other one was far more serious - One outbound from the Victors, one inbound, two impatient pilots, LVPs, and a cocky and inexperienced controller who just told them to basically do their own thing. You might remember that I threw Teddy way beyond his cot that day, and I never trusted that particular 'controller' again.
Stop bars save lives, impatient taxying saves a minute or so. I /KNOW/ I was old fashioned, but which is more important?
*(Readers under 50 will have to dig out old maps to see the areas Im referring to...)
Rant over, back to the decorating
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auto_pilot off, If you don't have access to CAA CAP 493 here’s the latest wording.
9.3.4 Controllers are not to instruct aircraft or vehicles to cross illuminated red stop-bars used at runway and intermediate taxiway holding positions. The Aerodrome Operator may decide, on the grounds of safety, that inoperable stop-bars and associated taxiways be withdrawn from service and alternative routes used where practicable.
9.3.5 On the occasions when the withdrawal of inoperable stop-bars is not possible and the stop-bars cannot be readily suppressed, under exceptional circumstances, an aircraft may be instructed to cross such an illuminated stop-bar subject to the following minimum conditions:
a) The affected runway or intermediate holding position and the aircraft are visible to the controller. This requirement may be satisfied by the use of SMR/SMGCS as specified in MATS Part 2. When an aerodrome is not SMR/SMGCS equipped, local alternate solutions based on risk assessment and detailed in MATS Part 2 may be employed.
b) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot or driver in no doubt that the crossing instruction only applies to the particular inoperable stop bar. Conditional clearances shall not be used under these circumstances.
c) Additional MATS Part 2 procedures may be required where local risk assessments have identified that further mitigation measures may be necessary.
9.3.6 In all cases particular care should be taken if this contingency procedure is to be used in Low Visibility Operations or at night as the green taxiway centreline lights linked to the stop-bar will not be available.
9.3.4 Controllers are not to instruct aircraft or vehicles to cross illuminated red stop-bars used at runway and intermediate taxiway holding positions. The Aerodrome Operator may decide, on the grounds of safety, that inoperable stop-bars and associated taxiways be withdrawn from service and alternative routes used where practicable.
9.3.5 On the occasions when the withdrawal of inoperable stop-bars is not possible and the stop-bars cannot be readily suppressed, under exceptional circumstances, an aircraft may be instructed to cross such an illuminated stop-bar subject to the following minimum conditions:
a) The affected runway or intermediate holding position and the aircraft are visible to the controller. This requirement may be satisfied by the use of SMR/SMGCS as specified in MATS Part 2. When an aerodrome is not SMR/SMGCS equipped, local alternate solutions based on risk assessment and detailed in MATS Part 2 may be employed.
b) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot or driver in no doubt that the crossing instruction only applies to the particular inoperable stop bar. Conditional clearances shall not be used under these circumstances.
c) Additional MATS Part 2 procedures may be required where local risk assessments have identified that further mitigation measures may be necessary.
9.3.6 In all cases particular care should be taken if this contingency procedure is to be used in Low Visibility Operations or at night as the green taxiway centreline lights linked to the stop-bar will not be available.
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Quite simply this is a stroppy controller. We often have the lights on for engineering purposes during the day at low intensity.
For the controller to say that they had no control over them is wrong.
We never give control of the runway guard bars to outside agencies. The controller simply forgot they were on and should have shown more grace when questioned.
For the controller to say that they had no control over them is wrong.
We never give control of the runway guard bars to outside agencies. The controller simply forgot they were on and should have shown more grace when questioned.
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> I am a being of extreme serenity (off forums anyway)
I should certainly hope so! Or you'll risk bringing vino collapso and biggin hill's reputation into disrepute.
I should certainly hope so! Or you'll risk bringing vino collapso and biggin hill's reputation into disrepute.
Sounds like the controller had a bad day,
happens, He's probably sorry now.
