passenger jet 'formations'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: kent
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
passenger jet 'formations'
Previously posted on Balcony spotters corner, suggested move to this site
I am led to believe that contrails show up within two defined levels of airspace, the first at about 14,000 feet to 18,000 feet; and the second starting at about 22,000 feet. The airspace in between and below I understand is not given to contrail conditions (?) Personally I would have thought once the conditions were right for contrails, there would be the right conditions for contrails to space itself.
I understand there are corridors that aircraft use, and I am only asking about passenger jets.
During about four months I spent on a beach on the East Kent Coast, I noticed there was never a time when just one passenger jet would fly over kent heading 'westward' alone. I noticed there were always either between two and five 'indian file', or two side by side ( given a couple of miles ahead or behind), sometimes this would be one showing contrail and another one lower down and no contrail, sometimes three or four within the same airspace, so to speak. Is there a method here?
Given the amount of airspace visible horizon to horizons, I cannot understand why aircraft are appearing in tandem, threes and fours or more just a few miles abreast and astern of each other. Is there a pupose to this? Given there is supposed to be crowded airspace, this does not fit. The aircraft surely would be more evenly spaced out? I appreciate they are heading to different airports.
I first noticed this in 2006, and to this day, I have never seen just one passenger jet aircraft alone. there is always another one nearby. This is never a case of one on this horizon and one on another horizon. They are always reasonably close by, albeit one with a contrail showing and another not, due to the differing flight levels.
Can anyone explain this or is this just a case of, planes converging like buses? I would have thought the jets would be more evenly spaced across the sky coming into England.
I know nothing about this at all, which is obviously coming across; but it does strike me as odd that the aircraft clump together like this and squashed up within their corridors.
I am led to believe that contrails show up within two defined levels of airspace, the first at about 14,000 feet to 18,000 feet; and the second starting at about 22,000 feet. The airspace in between and below I understand is not given to contrail conditions (?) Personally I would have thought once the conditions were right for contrails, there would be the right conditions for contrails to space itself.
I understand there are corridors that aircraft use, and I am only asking about passenger jets.
During about four months I spent on a beach on the East Kent Coast, I noticed there was never a time when just one passenger jet would fly over kent heading 'westward' alone. I noticed there were always either between two and five 'indian file', or two side by side ( given a couple of miles ahead or behind), sometimes this would be one showing contrail and another one lower down and no contrail, sometimes three or four within the same airspace, so to speak. Is there a method here?
Given the amount of airspace visible horizon to horizons, I cannot understand why aircraft are appearing in tandem, threes and fours or more just a few miles abreast and astern of each other. Is there a pupose to this? Given there is supposed to be crowded airspace, this does not fit. The aircraft surely would be more evenly spaced out? I appreciate they are heading to different airports.
I first noticed this in 2006, and to this day, I have never seen just one passenger jet aircraft alone. there is always another one nearby. This is never a case of one on this horizon and one on another horizon. They are always reasonably close by, albeit one with a contrail showing and another not, due to the differing flight levels.
Can anyone explain this or is this just a case of, planes converging like buses? I would have thought the jets would be more evenly spaced across the sky coming into England.
I know nothing about this at all, which is obviously coming across; but it does strike me as odd that the aircraft clump together like this and squashed up within their corridors.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hove
Age: 72
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
To my knowledge contrails do not appear at certain heights, when and at what height they appear is subject to a number of conditions and as far as I'm aware they are mostly weather related. Therefore they are not defined as such.
To my knowledge contrails do not appear at certain heights, when and at what height they appear is subject to a number of conditions and as far as I'm aware they are mostly weather related. Therefore they are not defined as such.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clicker has it about right -
In the Mil, the met brief in the morning includes (or certanly did in my day not so long ago) the levels you can expect the meteorological conditions conducive to leaving trails at - tactically for a fighter it's quite good to know as it is a very easy way of giving away your position by mistake...
1000tintoys
I'm sure someone who has knowledge of the sector will be along to correct any mistakes, but that are you are alluding to is quite restrictive airspace wise - the French have a huge danger area where their military jets practice surrender techniques, and there is the problem of trying to get eastbound aircraft - a fairly constant stream from the London area airports alone - climbed up through the westbound tracks.
Hence why everything gets funnelled into one area.
Not unique to where you are by any means, but obviously it's the bit that you can see
In the Mil, the met brief in the morning includes (or certanly did in my day not so long ago) the levels you can expect the meteorological conditions conducive to leaving trails at - tactically for a fighter it's quite good to know as it is a very easy way of giving away your position by mistake...
1000tintoys
I'm sure someone who has knowledge of the sector will be along to correct any mistakes, but that are you are alluding to is quite restrictive airspace wise - the French have a huge danger area where their military jets practice surrender techniques, and there is the problem of trying to get eastbound aircraft - a fairly constant stream from the London area airports alone - climbed up through the westbound tracks.
Hence why everything gets funnelled into one area.
Not unique to where you are by any means, but obviously it's the bit that you can see
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Madrid FIR
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1000tintoys,
Clicker is basically correct about contrails. It all depends upon whether the atmosphere at any given level and time is of the right temperature and humidity to allow the water vapour produced by combustion of jet fuel to condense as visible water droplets. A bit like your breath condensing on a cold winter day. Meteorological conditions change from day to day, so there is no absolute contrail level, although certain level bands are more likely to produce conditions favourable for their formation.
As regards bunching of aircraft, I suggest you do a bit of googling for 'airways'.
Clicker is basically correct about contrails. It all depends upon whether the atmosphere at any given level and time is of the right temperature and humidity to allow the water vapour produced by combustion of jet fuel to condense as visible water droplets. A bit like your breath condensing on a cold winter day. Meteorological conditions change from day to day, so there is no absolute contrail level, although certain level bands are more likely to produce conditions favourable for their formation.
As regards bunching of aircraft, I suggest you do a bit of googling for 'airways'.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Jockland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kerry Eire
Age: 76
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pheasant Plucker,
The OP has had his question answered fully in both this and his other thread.
Why complicate matters by pointing him to a cr*p site offering cod science, conspiracy theories and rubbish.
This is supposed to be a "professional" site - so much for your professionalism.
The OP has had his question answered fully in both this and his other thread.
Why complicate matters by pointing him to a cr*p site offering cod science, conspiracy theories and rubbish.
This is supposed to be a "professional" site - so much for your professionalism.
philbky
Two things:
1. No his question wasn't answered on the other thread. Bar one, the answers on that thread were not from controllers, and were a load of goose droppings -- which is all too common on this supposedly professional forum and is why I suggested he post it here.
2. The chemtrails post was a joke for God's sake! For you to suggest that someone who could ask the kinds of question that TinToys has would take the notion of chemtrails seriously, and that we should therefore censor a joke, beggars belief.
grizz
1. No his question wasn't answered on the other thread. Bar one, the answers on that thread were not from controllers, and were a load of goose droppings -- which is all too common on this supposedly professional forum and is why I suggested he post it here.
2. The chemtrails post was a joke for God's sake! For you to suggest that someone who could ask the kinds of question that TinToys has would take the notion of chemtrails seriously, and that we should therefore censor a joke, beggars belief.
grizz
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kerry Eire
Age: 76
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grizzled:
Neither you nor I know the OP or just how much knowledge he, or anyone else reading this forum has. As it stands there are some very well respected people in the US in particular who have been misled and deluded by the on going chemical trail nonsense. I've met a few and know first hand the problems that the FAA and Department of Defense have with them, given their public profiles.
For "professionals" to answer a genuine question with such a "joke" is, frankly, pathetic.
Thank you for calling the answers on the other thread "goose droppings"
Please do me the courtesy of stating which part of my answers on that thread were such..
You don't have to be employed in ATC to be able to answer what was a relatively simple question - though obviously you regard the rest of the world as unknowing numpties.
Neither you nor I know the OP or just how much knowledge he, or anyone else reading this forum has. As it stands there are some very well respected people in the US in particular who have been misled and deluded by the on going chemical trail nonsense. I've met a few and know first hand the problems that the FAA and Department of Defense have with them, given their public profiles.
For "professionals" to answer a genuine question with such a "joke" is, frankly, pathetic.
Thank you for calling the answers on the other thread "goose droppings"
Please do me the courtesy of stating which part of my answers on that thread were such..
You don't have to be employed in ATC to be able to answer what was a relatively simple question - though obviously you regard the rest of the world as unknowing numpties.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: swanwick carp lake
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you are officially a weirdo with no sense of humour. If what you say is true, i would say that its these us citizens intelligence that is in need of your professional help rather than anyone on here.
You sound like a right hoot at a party. any chance of an invite to your next shindig. I can bring books C to F of the encyclopedia brittanica to read and if it's really going mental we can crack out the rummikub.
You sound like a right hoot at a party. any chance of an invite to your next shindig. I can bring books C to F of the encyclopedia brittanica to read and if it's really going mental we can crack out the rummikub.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Land of the sand people.
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will there be Port and nibbles available? Although not allowed for consumption by non ATCO numpties...... HONK HONK!!!
Put me down for books G to J, im a whizz at the letter I you know.
Put me down for books G to J, im a whizz at the letter I you know.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contrails for us civies are good news. They show up turbulence at that level. We can often see the contrails below shaken up while we are in smooth air. You can use them to spot a/c to avoid and you can you can sometimes avoid following in their wakes or crossing them.
Contrails are also green as they reflect the sun and reduce global warming!
Falling goose droppings are the real worry!
Contrails are also green as they reflect the sun and reduce global warming!
Falling goose droppings are the real worry!
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Jockland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the 'hard of understanding' - just to clarify, my last posting was meant in 'fun', hinted at by my use of the and the little devil in the 'Post Icons' space.
I humbly appologise if I misled anyone
and shall try to be more professional.
As such, I have included the following link: http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~james/contrails.pdf for some light reading on the subject (of course, it's what 'they' want you to believe).
and the little devil in the 'Post Icons' space. I humbly appologise if I misled anyone
and shall try to be more professional. As such, I have included the following link: http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~james/contrails.pdf for some light reading on the subject (of course, it's what 'they' want you to believe).
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Jockland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.....and for further clarification.....my second posting had a slightly sarcastic tone (though hopefully slightly more 'professional' than the one before), but the link is genuine enough.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Land of the sand people.
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think there was only 1 who was mislead, although at that age sarcasm is generally a distant memory
(Above statement written in a sarcastic tone... just in case)
(Above statement written in a sarcastic tone... just in case)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Age: 66
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Kerry man has no sense of humour. A quick trawl through his posts show that he "As a retired CEO of an international company,....... too financially thick to understand your obvious economic brilliance." is way too brilliant to be troubled by air traffic thickies and their puerile attempts at levity.
Gives us Irish a bad name does that
Gives us Irish a bad name does that