NATS Career Development/Progression?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: London
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NATS Career Development/Progression?
Hi,
I'm currently in my last year of A Levels and am seriously considering my future careers.
I have a few options that I have tried to keep as open as possible to myself up to now. (Joining RAF as Logistics/Pilot Officer, going to Uni - got offers, doing my ATPL & joining NATS) Obviously some of them would require passing further tests which of course aren't gaurenteed - I realise this before anybody shouts at me!
The ATPL option is looking less likely at the moment due to various things and I won't go into detail.
Currently I'm doing as much research as possible about joining NATS as an ATCO vs taking a degree and joining a company down the business route.
What I'm hoping to find out from people in the company now, are what the career progression opportunities are like? IE what % of people on to another level in the company, and what these levels are. I assume there are watch managers or similar, supervisors & capacities for instructing. I'd be interested in anybodies experience with this, what people think about NATS in that respect. Are these sort of positions highly competitive or do many people not bother and stay as a standard, non-instructing ATCO forever?
Some people ask me why I'm looking so far ahead and in detail. Don't get me wrong I'd be more than happy to stay "just" at the standard level for fair while, but I'm trying to look into the future and make sure I'd still be happy with my career in say, 30 years time. I'd never want to look back and feel unmotivated/grow to dislike my job. I have a very slight concern that "simply" controlling would not be attractive/varied/challenging in 30 years (similar to the opinion of some on being a pilot!) and I'm just trying to gather opinions - so anything is welcome.
Kind Regards,
I'm currently in my last year of A Levels and am seriously considering my future careers.
I have a few options that I have tried to keep as open as possible to myself up to now. (Joining RAF as Logistics/Pilot Officer, going to Uni - got offers, doing my ATPL & joining NATS) Obviously some of them would require passing further tests which of course aren't gaurenteed - I realise this before anybody shouts at me!
The ATPL option is looking less likely at the moment due to various things and I won't go into detail.
Currently I'm doing as much research as possible about joining NATS as an ATCO vs taking a degree and joining a company down the business route.
What I'm hoping to find out from people in the company now, are what the career progression opportunities are like? IE what % of people on to another level in the company, and what these levels are. I assume there are watch managers or similar, supervisors & capacities for instructing. I'd be interested in anybodies experience with this, what people think about NATS in that respect. Are these sort of positions highly competitive or do many people not bother and stay as a standard, non-instructing ATCO forever?
Some people ask me why I'm looking so far ahead and in detail. Don't get me wrong I'd be more than happy to stay "just" at the standard level for fair while, but I'm trying to look into the future and make sure I'd still be happy with my career in say, 30 years time. I'd never want to look back and feel unmotivated/grow to dislike my job. I have a very slight concern that "simply" controlling would not be attractive/varied/challenging in 30 years (similar to the opinion of some on being a pilot!) and I'm just trying to gather opinions - so anything is welcome.
Kind Regards,
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't be sure what the situation is like nowadays, but you are bound to get plenty of information here.
I think you need to make a decision about what you really want out of life. Do you want to be a pilot? A manager? A Controller?
I spent all my time as a "sharp end" controller with no interest in management and loved every minute of it. Active controlling was my ambition when I was about 12 and I eventually achieved it. I also loved the shift work which gave me plenty of time at home with my family - my #1 priority in life - and I'm very well satisfied with my pension having retired at 58.
If NATS is like it was.... getting to be a manager was not too difficult because most controllers enjoyed the operational task rather than being an administrator. The result was that those who really wanted to be managers invariably made it. Unfortunately this sometimes meant that managers were people who couldn't hack the operational task (probably changed now!) but some made good managers.
Instructors are not necessarily managers; in fact the vast majority of instructors are "sharp end" operational ATCOs.
Lastly, do please understand that ATCO is not a substitute for ATPL and vv. Both jobs are intensive and carry enormous responsibility but they are eons apart. However, there are a good few ATCOs who have ATPLs and fly part-time.
Good, luck with whatever you decide. The most important thing is to be happy in your work.... but if you get married and have children, your wife and kids ALWAYS come first - remember that.
I think you need to make a decision about what you really want out of life. Do you want to be a pilot? A manager? A Controller?
I spent all my time as a "sharp end" controller with no interest in management and loved every minute of it. Active controlling was my ambition when I was about 12 and I eventually achieved it. I also loved the shift work which gave me plenty of time at home with my family - my #1 priority in life - and I'm very well satisfied with my pension having retired at 58.
If NATS is like it was.... getting to be a manager was not too difficult because most controllers enjoyed the operational task rather than being an administrator. The result was that those who really wanted to be managers invariably made it. Unfortunately this sometimes meant that managers were people who couldn't hack the operational task (probably changed now!) but some made good managers.
Instructors are not necessarily managers; in fact the vast majority of instructors are "sharp end" operational ATCOs.
Lastly, do please understand that ATCO is not a substitute for ATPL and vv. Both jobs are intensive and carry enormous responsibility but they are eons apart. However, there are a good few ATCOs who have ATPLs and fly part-time.
Good, luck with whatever you decide. The most important thing is to be happy in your work.... but if you get married and have children, your wife and kids ALWAYS come first - remember that.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
zoom,
do you want to be an 'Air Traffic Control Officer' or a 'Manager'?
If the latter is the case, most banks, or companies such a W H Smith are possibly worth further investigation.
do you want to be an 'Air Traffic Control Officer' or a 'Manager'?
If the latter is the case, most banks, or companies such a W H Smith are possibly worth further investigation.
Last edited by ZOOKER; 22nd Mar 2010 at 21:09.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dorset
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The majority of controllers love the job of controlling and I know many that would never ever want to give it up to sit in an office "down the corridoor".
That said, there are oppurtunities for people who wish to progress, into operational management such as watch management, safety etc.
Further to that, as NATS moves further towards the private sector it has many many impressive office facilities where "managers" get together and do things such as "facilitating" "blue sky thinking" "touchbase" "feasability studies" "vision 2011".
However, I know nothing of what those people do or even what those terms mean. I'm just someone who likes talking into a headset.
That said, there are oppurtunities for people who wish to progress, into operational management such as watch management, safety etc.
Further to that, as NATS moves further towards the private sector it has many many impressive office facilities where "managers" get together and do things such as "facilitating" "blue sky thinking" "touchbase" "feasability studies" "vision 2011".
However, I know nothing of what those people do or even what those terms mean. I'm just someone who likes talking into a headset.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Home
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there any reason why it has to be NATS vs. degree? You don't have to be a graduate to work for NATS (technically you don't even need A-levels), but actually a fair number of ATCO's are. NATS will still be there in 3 years time and you will have a lot more options available to you down the line as a graduate, and you will also find that the extra few years of life experience will stand you in very good stead at selection. If you go straight to NATS now (and assuming that you are successful) then you will be more or less choosing the career for life - if you decide you've made a mistake and you want out a number of years down the line you will be very hard pressed to make a move to a career of a comparable salary without a degree. On the other hand, if you go and spend a few years at uni you will widen your options and keep them open for much longer, during which time you will also change as a person quite a lot and you'll probably have a much clearer idea about what you want to do with yourself at the end of it.
I'd also think (though not speaking from experience, so I'm prepared to be put back into my box) that if your goal is to move upwards into management in NATS then a degree would be helpful (even if not strictly necessary) in acheiving those kind of promotions - again, this is probably as much to do with the additional life experiences going to uni will give you as it is about the piece of paper.
With regards to controlling and career progression, again I can't speak from experience as I don't start with NATS until August, but most controllers I've spoken to have found that "simply" controlling is more than enough to keep them occupied and excited about the role for the extent of their career. If you do want something a little bit different I believe that there are also a lot of opportunities to vary the role without necessarily moving "upwards" - I've met many ATCOs whilst visiting units who, whilst still being operational controllers, also have additional roles and responsibilities including: getting involved in education and training, either as OJTIs or at the college; supervisory roles such as watch managers, area supervisors; recuitment (there was one ATCO working as an assessor at my interviews); flow control; incident investigation; various committees, for example there are ATCOs representing various units as part of the environmental group etc. etc. This kind of sideways rather than upwards movement may not seem like a very logical career progression, but if you remember that at some units you can eventually be earning over 90k as a standard ATCO you are already earning as much if not more than many managers in small-medium businesses, yet doing a far more exciting and satisfying job.
I'd also think (though not speaking from experience, so I'm prepared to be put back into my box) that if your goal is to move upwards into management in NATS then a degree would be helpful (even if not strictly necessary) in acheiving those kind of promotions - again, this is probably as much to do with the additional life experiences going to uni will give you as it is about the piece of paper.
With regards to controlling and career progression, again I can't speak from experience as I don't start with NATS until August, but most controllers I've spoken to have found that "simply" controlling is more than enough to keep them occupied and excited about the role for the extent of their career. If you do want something a little bit different I believe that there are also a lot of opportunities to vary the role without necessarily moving "upwards" - I've met many ATCOs whilst visiting units who, whilst still being operational controllers, also have additional roles and responsibilities including: getting involved in education and training, either as OJTIs or at the college; supervisory roles such as watch managers, area supervisors; recuitment (there was one ATCO working as an assessor at my interviews); flow control; incident investigation; various committees, for example there are ATCOs representing various units as part of the environmental group etc. etc. This kind of sideways rather than upwards movement may not seem like a very logical career progression, but if you remember that at some units you can eventually be earning over 90k as a standard ATCO you are already earning as much if not more than many managers in small-medium businesses, yet doing a far more exciting and satisfying job.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are looking for a career where management progression is your aim, yes there are many opportunities for this to be achieved, the question you would have to ask yourself is when times get tough when you're training on radar will you still have the desire to succeed if your long term aim is management.
Having said that, its a fantastic career; and I went to university before applying, having already considered this as a career, needless to say the life experiece I gained, and the growing up I did, is while I am still with the company...
Having said that, its a fantastic career; and I went to university before applying, having already considered this as a career, needless to say the life experiece I gained, and the growing up I did, is while I am still with the company...
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: united kingdom
Age: 63
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Zoom to the skies.
Your question deserves a serious answer. This is a very quick idea of what is available in NATS.
There is a career progression in the ATC progression and there are several paths to take.
They can be management as you suggested but there are also the other paths which the bulk of people here forget.
Operationally, there is progression from ATCO to OJTI (this is paid), Unit competency examiner (this is paid). Then there is the managment structure which goes from ATCO to supervisor (this has to be applied for), Watch Supervisor (again aplication and passing an interview required), then you move out of the operations room.
In most of the lower level jobs outside of the ops room (SATCO and below) there is an opportunity to remain controlling. There are opportunities for ATCOs in the procedures departments, flow managment, Safety departments. Outside of the ops rooms there are opportunites in the Corporate and technical centres. Most of the managers below director level in NATS are ATCOs who spent time controlling before applying for jobs outside of the ops room.
Hope this helps.
Your question deserves a serious answer. This is a very quick idea of what is available in NATS.
There is a career progression in the ATC progression and there are several paths to take.
They can be management as you suggested but there are also the other paths which the bulk of people here forget.
Operationally, there is progression from ATCO to OJTI (this is paid), Unit competency examiner (this is paid). Then there is the managment structure which goes from ATCO to supervisor (this has to be applied for), Watch Supervisor (again aplication and passing an interview required), then you move out of the operations room.
In most of the lower level jobs outside of the ops room (SATCO and below) there is an opportunity to remain controlling. There are opportunities for ATCOs in the procedures departments, flow managment, Safety departments. Outside of the ops rooms there are opportunites in the Corporate and technical centres. Most of the managers below director level in NATS are ATCOs who spent time controlling before applying for jobs outside of the ops room.
Hope this helps.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woking, Surrey
Age: 43
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
zkdli, don't forget college instructors as well - some are not operational controllers anymore, but some still do control operationally and split their time (a few weeks at the college, then back on watch etc.).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: London
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi all,
Thanks for the serious replies - I appreciate them all. Here are my various responses:
Scott Diamon,
Haha. I'd guess that's not NATS specific
ZOOKER,
I guess you're part of why I'm advised by regulars to take pprune with a tablespoon of salt? :P
Heathrow Director,
Don't worry - I'm in no way looking at being an ATCO to "substitute" for an ATPL. I have a genuine interest in it
Regarding "Do you want to be a pilot? A manager? A Controller?" I don't feel that you can just be a manager? Surely one needs to have a trade/grounding in something (anything) to create a chain on which you can aim to move up. I can't just join somewhere as a manager (other than these graduate training programmes which I don't particuarly like the look of.) My thinking was not that I wanted desperately to become a manager in NATS, I am simply trying to find out about options for career development in the future as I simply don't know whether being operational until retirement would interest me. There's no way of being sure whether it would or wouldn't, hence why I'm checking all options now.
BigDaddyBoxMeal:
Haha. Are their job titles 3 lines too? :P
Pat42:
Thank you for pointing this out. For some reason, since it's not a requirement, I hadn't really considering doing the degree too. On reflection it would seem extremely sensible (apart from the debt) for the long term. I guess the knowledge would be useful in any future career, and, of course, as you say the experience is pretty unique! The suggestions about career development "sideways" so to speak sounds interesting and possibly just the thing I'd be interested in. I'm glad to hear such options exist
DCB2008UK: Definitely yes - don't get me wrong, my main aim wouldn't be management! I'm simply exploring options for the future when, perhaps, I may feel like trying something different Out of interest, what do you do at the moment if you don't mind me asking?
zkdli: Thanks for answering in so much detail: those kind of positions are ones I thought that must exist, but it's good to have it confirmed so thanks Very interesting that you say most non-directorate level managers are past ATCOs, I had a feeling this might be the case but it's good to know. That's something I feel may interest me.
Thanks,
Thanks for the serious replies - I appreciate them all. Here are my various responses:
Scott Diamon,
Haha. I'd guess that's not NATS specific
ZOOKER,
I guess you're part of why I'm advised by regulars to take pprune with a tablespoon of salt? :P
Heathrow Director,
Don't worry - I'm in no way looking at being an ATCO to "substitute" for an ATPL. I have a genuine interest in it
Regarding "Do you want to be a pilot? A manager? A Controller?" I don't feel that you can just be a manager? Surely one needs to have a trade/grounding in something (anything) to create a chain on which you can aim to move up. I can't just join somewhere as a manager (other than these graduate training programmes which I don't particuarly like the look of.) My thinking was not that I wanted desperately to become a manager in NATS, I am simply trying to find out about options for career development in the future as I simply don't know whether being operational until retirement would interest me. There's no way of being sure whether it would or wouldn't, hence why I'm checking all options now. BigDaddyBoxMeal:
Haha. Are their job titles 3 lines too? :P
Pat42:
Thank you for pointing this out. For some reason, since it's not a requirement, I hadn't really considering doing the degree too. On reflection it would seem extremely sensible (apart from the debt) for the long term. I guess the knowledge would be useful in any future career, and, of course, as you say the experience is pretty unique! The suggestions about career development "sideways" so to speak sounds interesting and possibly just the thing I'd be interested in. I'm glad to hear such options exist
DCB2008UK: Definitely yes - don't get me wrong, my main aim wouldn't be management! I'm simply exploring options for the future when, perhaps, I may feel like trying something different
Out of interest, what do you do at the moment if you don't mind me asking? zkdli: Thanks for answering in so much detail: those kind of positions are ones I thought that must exist, but it's good to have it confirmed so thanks
Very interesting that you say most non-directorate level managers are past ATCOs, I had a feeling this might be the case but it's good to know. That's something I feel may interest me.Thanks,
PPRuNe Tea Lady
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: A pyramid far far away
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zoom
How refreshing to see a well thought out, sensible, articulate and gramatically correct reply.
Judging from your last post IMHO you have what it takes to make a success of any path you decide to tread. Only you know which one feels right but don't be afraid to try more than one. Few folks now do the same thing throughout their career.
Despite all the NATS knockers they are a good employer in terms of providing training for any job / promotion for which you pass the assessment.
Good luck - come back in 3 years and let us know where you are
How refreshing to see a well thought out, sensible, articulate and gramatically correct reply.
Judging from your last post IMHO you have what it takes to make a success of any path you decide to tread. Only you know which one feels right but don't be afraid to try more than one. Few folks now do the same thing throughout their career.
Despite all the NATS knockers they are a good employer in terms of providing training for any job / promotion for which you pass the assessment.
Good luck - come back in 3 years and let us know where you are
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zoom,
spot-on.
In fact you should take everything with a tablespoonful, (nay, BUCKETFUL) of salt.
Especially information originating from councillors, politicians, journalists and of course, 'managers'.
"The truth is out there". - Best of luck.
spot-on.
In fact you should take everything with a tablespoonful, (nay, BUCKETFUL) of salt.
Especially information originating from councillors, politicians, journalists and of course, 'managers'.
"The truth is out there". - Best of luck.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: In a control room with no radar...
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Echoing the comments of our Tea Lady; though I would add in ZOOKER's case that you'd have to pump the bloody Dead Sea in order to have enough salt to tag along with one of his posts! 
Hope you're keeping well though Mr B
Hope you're keeping well though Mr B
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: On a foreign shore trying a new wine diet. So far, I've lost 3days!
Age: 75
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And just to add another option to those already proffered. There is always the choice of working overseas once you are trained. Eurocontrol, Canada, Australia and New Zealand frequently hire experienced ATCOs not to mention about 10 airports in the Gulf. NATS even has ATCOs at Gibraltar. I certainly enjoyed 35+ years travelling the world controlling and managing at various levels.
Whatever you choose, the best of luck.
On the beach
Whatever you choose, the best of luck.
On the beach
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go for the degree
Zoom,
It sounds like you intend to go for management, whatever your career. I heartily approve. ATCOs (I'm not one) have a healthy disrespect for anyone without a validation, probably because of the ego needed to take hundreds of lives in their hands on a daily basis, so you need to take some of the aspersions cast here with more than the usual quantity of salt.
Your comment that managers need a solid grounding in the real job is correct, but equally management is a distinct skill that requires education and training (the two are not the same) to develop. I've seen managers from one industry dropped into another and fail badly because they didn't understand the people they were talking to. On the other hand I've also seen technical and operational people pushed upstairs into a management role without preparation, and fail equally badly.
Hence I advise you to go for the degree. Look for something that includes managment-track information as well as the vocational stuff. Also try to become more generally aware of the outlines of management accounting, economics and finance; these are the tools of a manager's trade in every industry. Magazines like The Economist and Forbes have much useful information. Finally, plan to do an MBA or some similar postgraduate degree about 10 to 15 years into your career. At that point you will have the experience and context necessary to assimilate the information.
It sounds like you intend to go for management, whatever your career. I heartily approve. ATCOs (I'm not one) have a healthy disrespect for anyone without a validation, probably because of the ego needed to take hundreds of lives in their hands on a daily basis, so you need to take some of the aspersions cast here with more than the usual quantity of salt.
Your comment that managers need a solid grounding in the real job is correct, but equally management is a distinct skill that requires education and training (the two are not the same) to develop. I've seen managers from one industry dropped into another and fail badly because they didn't understand the people they were talking to. On the other hand I've also seen technical and operational people pushed upstairs into a management role without preparation, and fail equally badly.
Hence I advise you to go for the degree. Look for something that includes managment-track information as well as the vocational stuff. Also try to become more generally aware of the outlines of management accounting, economics and finance; these are the tools of a manager's trade in every industry. Magazines like The Economist and Forbes have much useful information. Finally, plan to do an MBA or some similar postgraduate degree about 10 to 15 years into your career. At that point you will have the experience and context necessary to assimilate the information.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: That France
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a horrible feeling, innit? You're 18, hot to trot, you just KNOW that you're going to end up ruling the world whatever you do, but you haven't got any more than a vague feeling about what that path should be.
I'm not putting you down, but it seems to me that you NEED to take a while longer to decide your choice of your career path - someone who burns with a single ambition and knows just what is involved in achieving success is more likely to get through than someone who stumbles unconvinced into their job and suffers their way through the training.
So what if you flip burgers for a year? - if at the end of it you can say 'This job is for me' you'll be a lot better position to offer yourself as a prospect - and it'll show at interview.
Oh, and forget management. I had 35 years in ATC and sat through waves of totally incompetent and unsuitable 'managers' who, mainly, left nothing but a sour taste in the mouths of those whose lives they damaged. I had good ones, too, but few and far between. To be a manager takes nothing but having a copy of the latest 'ology in your back pocket - but to be a GOOD manager takes years of doing a job, learning how to genuinely get the best out of people, and knowing when to stand up to the crap that comes down from the higher 'ologies.
Just my 2d-worth. Good luck......
I'm not putting you down, but it seems to me that you NEED to take a while longer to decide your choice of your career path - someone who burns with a single ambition and knows just what is involved in achieving success is more likely to get through than someone who stumbles unconvinced into their job and suffers their way through the training.
So what if you flip burgers for a year? - if at the end of it you can say 'This job is for me' you'll be a lot better position to offer yourself as a prospect - and it'll show at interview.
Oh, and forget management. I had 35 years in ATC and sat through waves of totally incompetent and unsuitable 'managers' who, mainly, left nothing but a sour taste in the mouths of those whose lives they damaged. I had good ones, too, but few and far between. To be a manager takes nothing but having a copy of the latest 'ology in your back pocket - but to be a GOOD manager takes years of doing a job, learning how to genuinely get the best out of people, and knowing when to stand up to the crap that comes down from the higher 'ologies.
Just my 2d-worth. Good luck......