Cleared TO, aircraft very short final
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Cleared TO, aircraft very short final
Hello,
Just thought I would talk about a suprising safety issue I experienced today down in the canaries which shocked myself and the skipper. Clearly the tower forgot about an aircraft they cleared to land quite far out (my speculation, earlier in the day on the same approach we were cleared to land about 12 miles out), we were approaching the hold and called 'XXXX xxx hold A1 ready for departure' response was 'XXX xxx cleared takeoff runway XX surface wind xxx/xx with the aircraft about 10 seconds from touchdown on the approach.
We were in an old A320 with non pop-up TCAS, so no instrument indication of the aircraft on the approach; thankfully good visual so we knew what the aircraft was doing by looking out of our window so we declined (previously on ground freq so no RT confirmation of what was going on). Either way I was shocked that 1) the controller seemingly forgot about the aircraft 2) the controller clearly wasn't looking out of the window when we were cleared takeoff. Even while the landing aircraft touched down, we were asked why we weren't responding to the clearance to take off. During the roll-out of the other aircraft, the realisation of the situation occured, followed by some confused sounds, then 'line up only.' The controller then changed and we went from there.
The only thoughts we had were that 1) we were very glad we were good visual 2) suprised with many hours instructing at small ATC fields, never did I get such a dangerous clearance; finally when it happened it was at a fairly major airfield.
A good look out before line-up is a very good thing!
Just thought I would talk about a suprising safety issue I experienced today down in the canaries which shocked myself and the skipper. Clearly the tower forgot about an aircraft they cleared to land quite far out (my speculation, earlier in the day on the same approach we were cleared to land about 12 miles out), we were approaching the hold and called 'XXXX xxx hold A1 ready for departure' response was 'XXX xxx cleared takeoff runway XX surface wind xxx/xx with the aircraft about 10 seconds from touchdown on the approach.
We were in an old A320 with non pop-up TCAS, so no instrument indication of the aircraft on the approach; thankfully good visual so we knew what the aircraft was doing by looking out of our window so we declined (previously on ground freq so no RT confirmation of what was going on). Either way I was shocked that 1) the controller seemingly forgot about the aircraft 2) the controller clearly wasn't looking out of the window when we were cleared takeoff. Even while the landing aircraft touched down, we were asked why we weren't responding to the clearance to take off. During the roll-out of the other aircraft, the realisation of the situation occured, followed by some confused sounds, then 'line up only.' The controller then changed and we went from there.
The only thoughts we had were that 1) we were very glad we were good visual 2) suprised with many hours instructing at small ATC fields, never did I get such a dangerous clearance; finally when it happened it was at a fairly major airfield.
A good look out before line-up is a very good thing!
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Did you file an ASR or MOR even? Sounds dodgy and really something that should be looked at. Have never heard of a situation like that in my short career so far.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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When I saw the thread title, I thought 'dear god, not another phraseology change!' Then I read the first post and a chill ran through me. But, I'm afraid this is a human based system and humans unfortunately make mistakes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending what happened here, but mistakes do occur.
We don't know what happened in the VCR, but I suspect that the mistake was witnessed by the ATCO's colleagues and he/she was removed from the seat very quickly.
The whole thing sounds nasty, but thankfully, tom and his/her colleague on the flight deck were vigilant enough and the wx good enough to see what was (literally) coming.
PS Where was it? It's just so I can plan my next holiday!
followed by some confused sounds, then 'line up only.' The controller then changed and we went from there.
The whole thing sounds nasty, but thankfully, tom and his/her colleague on the flight deck were vigilant enough and the wx good enough to see what was (literally) coming.
PS Where was it? It's just so I can plan my next holiday!
Sometimes even excellent Homer nods... not many months ago I witnessed an aircraft being cleared to land on 09R at Heathrow with an aircraft on the threshold that had lined up without clearance. As I was about to report this fact, another aircraft waiting for departure beat me to it. What followed sounded like a text book example of how to handle such an incident. The inbound aircraft had it's landing clearance cancelled, the runway incursion aircraft was told to expedite vacating and, having done so, the inbound aircraft was again cleared to land as it came over the fence, all done in a calm and authoritative way. At the time there was a NOTAM in force warning of the possibility of pilots lining up on 09R when they got to the front of the queue, assuming they had been cleared to do so.
On this occasion pilots and the controller made mistakes but it was resolved in a professional manner.
On this occasion pilots and the controller made mistakes but it was resolved in a professional manner.
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In all my jumpseat trips, with at least 3 different airlines, I always noticed both pilots checking clear left/clear right not only when entering a runway, but even on taxiways. Sure it won't help in IMC, but it's at least one more form of defence.
Good practice/SOP. Keep it up!
Good practice/SOP. Keep it up!
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Equally, as a controller I watched out of the window but before issuing landing or take-off clearance I checked the ground radar too. It's called "belt and braces".
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Hello all,
Thanks for the replies. I was debating whether to put this in a pilot specific forum, or the ATC one. My reason for posting is partly to 'get it off my chest' but also just a reminder to both pilots and controllers that the same mistakes can happen over and over and the 'belt and braces' approach can save the day (as per HD post).
We are all human and mistakes happen, afterwards I said to the captain 'I bet she has that sinking feeling in the stomach' that we all sadly know when we realise we have cocked up.
All the best,
Tom.
Thanks for the replies. I was debating whether to put this in a pilot specific forum, or the ATC one. My reason for posting is partly to 'get it off my chest' but also just a reminder to both pilots and controllers that the same mistakes can happen over and over and the 'belt and braces' approach can save the day (as per HD post).
We are all human and mistakes happen, afterwards I said to the captain 'I bet she has that sinking feeling in the stomach' that we all sadly know when we realise we have cocked up.
All the best,
Tom.
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Sadly Tom, as with most incidents reported to AENA via MOR/ASR, it will never be investigated and replied to. For those UK ATC'ers, unfortunately this is standard practice by several European authorities. NATS responds EVERY time, to the benefit of ALL parties.
How can safety ever improve when foreign authorities fail to respond to safety reports sent to them? Human error is normal, no point hiding from it only investigation can make us ALL hopefully operate in a safer way.
30W (Pilot)
How can safety ever improve when foreign authorities fail to respond to safety reports sent to them? Human error is normal, no point hiding from it only investigation can make us ALL hopefully operate in a safer way.
30W (Pilot)
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Don´t expect to get any answers, feedback or whatever about your report. AENA will not even look into it and USCA (ATC union) will make sure that nobody does look into it either. My guess is that this "incident" will not be investigated, reviewed or even considered as an incident. Spain... the lack of public service spirit of AENA and the likes is common across all Government instances (ATC´ers included)
WSA
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...we were approaching the hold and called 'XXXX xxx hold A1 ready for departure' response was 'XXX xxx cleared takeoff runway XX surface wind xxx/xx with the aircraft about 10 seconds from touchdown on the approach.
In some instances, it's even legal for 2 aircraft to occupy the runway at once.
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Head banging allowed if you must, but it is the same in the motherland too. I think the point being made was the 'short finals' which we certainly do not do over here (my turn )
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Tom, IMHO, about the ONLY thing you should be taking away from this experience is the realisation that on the whole, controllers do a damn good job. In your (so far, short) flying career, you would have been the subject of thousands- probably tens of thousands- of controller decisions, of which only one has gone wrong.
Controllers spend all day, every working day, making hundreds of decisions on which hang (as you were painfully aware) the safe passage of lots of people. An old cliche, but still- a fact.
Controllers spend all day, every working day, making hundreds of decisions on which hang (as you were painfully aware) the safe passage of lots of people. An old cliche, but still- a fact.
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No - the only thing Tom should take away 'from this experience' is that you need to look after yourself. Had it not been for an alert crew.................. it only takes one mistake to undo all those 'hundreds of decisions', unfortunately .
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In the 8 years I worked as a tower controller in one of the busiest airports in the canary islands, I had three airliners taking off without being cleared to, they were just cleared to line up and wait (one german, two spanish).
I also once forgot to clear to land an aircraft (my mistake) but he landed anyway. And I could continue on and on...
I don't intend to justify what happened, it certainly sounds like a serious situation, but there are many factors to be taking into consideration: if the controller was getting his twr rating, workload at the moment, visibility... The important thing is that he realized his mistake and took immediate action.
And we must accept that mistakes happen everyday in both sides (I'm no exception, but my mistakes are
).
I also once forgot to clear to land an aircraft (my mistake) but he landed anyway. And I could continue on and on...
I don't intend to justify what happened, it certainly sounds like a serious situation, but there are many factors to be taking into consideration: if the controller was getting his twr rating, workload at the moment, visibility... The important thing is that he realized his mistake and took immediate action.
And we must accept that mistakes happen everyday in both sides (I'm no exception, but my mistakes are
).
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Mixed operations!
At airports where you usually use one runway for departures and another one for landings, like EGLL, then the pilots may not be aware of that there could be landing aircraft on "their" runway but when you have landing and departing aircraft on the same runway, called mix operations, then everybody have to be more alert and ready for action. Normally, if you as a tower controller, wants to depart one aircraft before a landing aircraft, you make sure that the departing aircraft is ready for a rolling departure. This makes everybody alert and ready for action.
If one ATC unit has a "relaxed" approach to issuing landing clearance (12NM from touchdown) then that unit is in trouble and should immediately change their way of working. This is not a safe way of working.
One way of improving the working methods is to have a "no blame culture" which means that you report everything that happens and a lot of effort is put in to making the job safer for all involved. This is in force in Sweden and works well.
If one ATC unit has a "relaxed" approach to issuing landing clearance (12NM from touchdown) then that unit is in trouble and should immediately change their way of working. This is not a safe way of working.
One way of improving the working methods is to have a "no blame culture" which means that you report everything that happens and a lot of effort is put in to making the job safer for all involved. This is in force in Sweden and works well.